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Originally Posted by MuppetFace /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes, that's what I was saying. You seemed to imply that the new Floats were a failure because they weren't meeting the HD800's pricepoint, or at least that's how I read your response. I responded by saying they're two very different niche markets, despite both being high-end audiophilia. Your language of "killing the Floats" suggested this.
I gather I should be less implicit
Dispassionately viewed, as a business model ie: centre for generating profit with a view to expanding a business, the Floats are a failure. As a very limited run niche market
product they do however succeed.
Just for claritys sake I used the HD800 as an example simply because I believe that what they are charging for that is about the max anyone should be asking for a headphone that does not require being packaged with an amp.
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Quote: Actually yes, people are debating that they put effort into it. Unless I somehow conjured the posts about JPS charging people for a $5k cable and a $500 headphone, the posts about their "taking people for a ride," etc. out of my imagination.
As for gaze of countless weary eyes, there have also been a few posts by orthoheads like dBel who are very excited about the Abyss driver. Posts that seem to be ignored in favor of the ones about popsicle sticks and ugly women, because let's be honest: this thread is more about people getting to feel good about trashing a $5k product. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that, or that this thread doesn't serve some kind of self-styled purpose of sending a message to manufacturers (or whatever). Just pointing out the underlying impetus for most of the posts here.
Also I'm in no way suggesting their business model is sound. There are ways of not passing the costs off onto the consumer. Look at Audez'e, sure. However my point was that there is genuine R&D going into the drivers.
I am not arguing against the RD effort behind the drivers. Sure there is excitement and rightfully so. Once again there is also a healthy skepticism wrt durability and QC. A wary eye toward a new gee whiz headphone should be mandatory at this point in time, particularly an ortho.
I do not think those posts have been ignored. My suspicion is the pure shock of the price, and poor physical presentation have overwhelmed. I do not think it is entirely about the have nots of the world trashing a 5 k product (hey there are actually a lot of products out there worth 5k, few of them indeed are headphones). Usually "in yer face" advertizing and hype generates this type of reaction. I had actually thought that died out in the 80's. Trust planet audiophile to hang on to that old chestnut.
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Oh, I fully agree with you. JPS is not going about their PR well at all in my opinion. The fact is they're not offering review samples period so far as I know. The "charging for a review sample" is a bit of a misrepresentation. The fact is, you can audition one at The Cable Co. for a 5% non refundable deposit. This is the policy Cable Co. uses for ALL of their lending library headphones, not just the Abyss. That 5% fee, of course, becomes almost $300 when you consider the cost of the Abyss, so yes it's quite an investment. However Cable Co. allows you to apply that amount to future purchases of whatever else they stock.
I personally think JPS should offer demo units for a full refundable deposit to people.
Hiding behind a company restocking policy that applies to
SALES items is both a way to de incentivize reviewers and grab some quick money for those who would indulge such arrogance. How nice of them to allow you to spend that 300 dollars of
your money on other products they sell. This type of business practice puts companies like that on my "never deal with list".
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Yes, indeed. These are all things that occur in our hobby, and I've posted at length in the past that the full-sized headphone market is in a sorry state right now, so I would agree with much of that.
My example of the businessmen was meant to illustrate the point that the Abyss will sell, regardless of whether we champion it as head-fi summit-fi approved or not. Again, this was in response to your post about stuff not selling well because it's not priced like the HD800. This wasn't a justification for the Abyss. I too find the price of the Abyss to be a problem. I'm not whistling dixie about it.
I think the high end of the full size headphone market is in a poor state of affairs right now. I find in the low an mid end there are more than a few options to challenge the flagships of the world. Most will never see or hear them as the market swell is bling and outrageous pricing (have you hugged your Goldmund today). We stuck ourselves into directly linking price to value and so overlook a large number of bargains out there.
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Again, I agree re: Sennheiser. They've earned their reputation. In the case of Sennheiser, again, I was referring to your point about HD800 prices. Most small companies simply can't charge what Sennheiser can for turnarounds on R&D.
And I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing big guys like AKG and Beyer doing anything worthwhile right now. Sennheiser has their ring driver, they're tinkering around with orthos from what some insiders say, and they have a new 'stat that may come out in a thousand years, sure. But honestly the state of the full-sized market is just sad right now, and it's the smaller guys who seem to be doing most of the worthwhile stuff. If larger manufacturers are even eyeing orthos right now, it's because Audez'e and HiFiman---smaller guys---brought them back from the grave. Smaller companies are more likely to be risk takers. I'd love it if Yamaha or Fostex decided to get back into the ortho market and release a smaller-sized, easier-to-drive ortho for $500. But that's not likely to happen. Plus why would I trust someone like Beyer any more than a smalltime cable maker? Beyer, who doesn't even seem to understand how damping works (or care) despite their making headphones longer than anyone?
It's quite funny when you look at the state of tech right now. Depending on the product and if you are willing to do the homework, the tools are out there to RD a small product quite economically. I would have to argue that now more than ever, it is
possible to compete with a large manu. What I am seeing in the industry is it is just not
probable.
Anyone can go to a local university and approach a design class with the criteria for their product and have it artistically designed quite economically. That may well have solved one problem in this case.
Hey! The Tesla's not exactly a slouch. You would trust Beyer, because the odds are in their favour
AKG's still sufffering shock at the placement with their new foster parents and don't know whether they are still European or American or Asian now. But All is well , Harmon sucked a top prof out of the NRC, to tell us so.
Fostex never left the market and really with the world running to buy T50's to mod, what need do they have to revamp their ortho line?
Yamaha is the sleeper here. They have all the ingredients waiting for application. It would be a matter of corporate mood swing for them to re enter the market.
Right now they, and apparently everybody else decided to try and capture the beats market rather than leapfrogging it and developing one of their own. The designer jeans war updated for the new millenium.
