[jmb]

When it comes to technical suggestions, I got nothin', but I think you should focus on playback sound quality. That is what most people will be using it for. Save recording feature for another unit. To keep it simple I suggest:

1. Best headphone amp you can fit in there. This would negate the need to buy an external portable amp and allow the player to drive demanding inefficient headphones (e.g. Etymotic ER-4S). A crossfeeder would be a nice addition too.

2. A powerful very low noise line out for attachment to home systems. Digital in/out would be nice, but it would not bother me at all if it lacked them.

3. Should be able to just plug the unit into a USB port and have it operate like an external hardrive. No software bundled. EAC with LAME, FLAC, OGG, etc. can be used for creating files.

4. Should have high capacity HD, so a fair number of lossless file types can be stored on device.

5. Error free gapless playback for all file formats.

6. Highly customizable EQ (8 bands). No presets, just custom settings that can be named and saved. Plus truly random "play all tracks" shuffle mode with smooth crossfader.

7. 20 hour battery life

8. Simple intuitive controls and menu system.

9. Ability to be charged and powered by USB

10. Simple, elegant, minimalist, aluminum casing that is pocket friendly. The best looking DAP player IMO, is the MZ-R900 Minidisc Player/Recorder. Many other high end MD players past and preset (particulary sonys) have had beautiful external aesthetics. I would take a que from those designs.

11. Removable/Replaceable battery

Just my two cents. People just want audiophile quality sound reproduction to bring out the full potential of their high end headphones. I think recording features should be secondary.

 

[Yono]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb 4. Should have high capacity HD, so a fair number of lossless file types can be stored on device.

The next generation neuros will use a 1.8", and so far that only goes up to 60GB, so there is a definite limitation on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb 5. Error free gapless playback for all file formats.

The Karma has shown us it is possible, its all up to the firmware.


Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb 6. Highly customizable EQ (8 bands). No presets, just custom settings that can be named and saved. Plus truly random "play all tracks" shuffle mode with smooth crossfader.

The EQ on the original neuros was already pretty customizable. First you wanted gapless, now a crossfader? Haha, the next one will be fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb 7. 20 hour battery life

SO, you want to play FLAC, gaplessly, and possibly with a crossfader, while having a 20 hour battery life. Now, how your logic comes into play is beyond me, however I might have a suggestion on the next one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb 11. Removable/Replaceable battery

Alright, so lets assume Neuros picks a fairly standard replacable battery. You could swap that out and use a better one (1800mAh vs. 2600mAh). And even better, you could buy two and use one right after the other. That might get you #7.

 

[jmb]

Just putting my dreams out there

. I have a few more, just couldn't think of them all.

Top priorities for me, and ones I feel are realistic:

1. Powerful audiophile headphone amp
2. Excellent analog line out
3. Gapless playback for albums and crossfader for random shuffle mode
4. Parametric EQ
5. 20GB
6. 15-20 hour battery life
7. Pocket friendly size
8. Simple minimalist design
9. Simple windows explorer interface (plug in, drag, and drop)

That's all I really need personally. Definitely not hard to build as the technology is there already available. It just needs to be integrated into a single player.

Bit perfect digital I/O and an analog line in would be great too for live recording. But, I just want a portable, audiophile, gapless mp3 player, with a good battery life.

 

[D-EJ915]

1. A screen that is highly legible in daylight and has a backlight.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb Just putting my dreams out there . I have a few more, just couldn't think of them all. Top priorities for me, and ones I feel are realistic: 1. Powerful audiophile headphone amp 2. Excellent analog line out 3. Gapless playback for albums and crossfader for random shuffle mode 4. Parametric EQ 5. 20GB 6. 15-20 hour battery life 7. Pocket friendly size 8. Simple minimalist design 9. Simple windows explorer interface (plug in, drag, and drop) That's all I really need personally. Definitely not hard to build as the technology is there already available. It just needs to be integrated into a single player. Bit perfect digital I/O and an analog line in would be great too for live recording. But, I just want a portable, audiophile, gapless mp3 player, with a good battery life.

You've pretty much nailed my dreams on the head. My own refinements:

1. Powerful within reason. Aim for about Karma level, I say. Pretty much anything you can't drive on that you'd generally want a separate amp for on even a home system, so why waste power trying on a portable? The AKG K271S is a good benchmark to aim for, as it's a bit more difficult for most typical players to drive, but you'd never expect a portable to be able to drive say, the HD580 or 650 without a battery life measured in minutes, so why bother trying?

2. Totally agreed. Too many portable line outs aren't really true line outs.

3. YES. For the love of all that is good and holy, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE include true gapless playback even if you don't include any other suggestions. In addition, I'd like to make the suggestion of ReplayGain support. This would make shuffled playlists so much nicer.

4. It WOULD be really nice. It's such a great feature on the Karma, I don't know why more players haven't followed suit.

5. At minimum. I certainly wouldn't complain if higher capacity versions showed up.

6. I think that a good battery life should go without saying. 15-20 hours is a good goal.

7. I wouldn't really mind too much if I can't fit it in my pocket easily if it came with a decent case/belt clip. Stuff in my pockets get scratched up a ton anyway.

8. Once again, see the Karma. Perfect balance of simple design and easy access to everything needed.

9. Drag and drop USB mass storage support is a very good thing, it eliminates cross-platform support issues and just makes things easier for everyone. Tag database support would also be a nice feature for those that want it if you could have the player construct it itself upon demand. If syncing software is included, how about making it open source, like has been done with the previous Neuros firmware?

Basically, just take the Karma and improve upon it with better durability, higher storage capacity, line/digital out (heck, you can easily put them on the same jack), recording capabilities as has been mentioned, and USB mass storage support. An easily swappable battery (and maybe hard drive?) would just be icing on an already extremely sweet cake.

 

[JoeBorn]

Sorry for the formating here, this is from our internal mail list where I cut and pasted responses

"Power is a concern. Power is a huge concern for a portable device, a measly 35mA consumption will kill a 350mA battery in 10 hours. If you're planning a hard drive (with at least 100mA consumption) and a dac with at least 30mA, an adc with at least 30mA consumption a cpu with 50mA and other bits and pieces like recievers/transmitters for outputs that quickly adds up. How do you plan to fuel this thing?

Bob: Power is really a concern -- for the 442 family. It is not so much of a big deal for the Recorder family.
The decision to use separate ADC and DAC was made with awareness of trade-offs. One is the cost of a slightly bigger - heavier and more expensive - battery. Even with a bigger battry, we knew that its life would be shorter because of the added burden.
Also, since this is a video-capable machine, the battery life (at least the consumption) will be higher than non-video-capable engines.
We have been on a path of "quality ahead of anything else".
I have been careful to select parts with as little power requirements as possible, but of course the burden of separate ADC and DAC, PLL and multiple support paraphernalia will make a significant dent in battery life.

DAC chip wise (if you are going with a dac) I'd try and go with something that sounds as neutral as possible, my choice, something like a wolfson WM4780. BB and Crystal are laid back and solid state glary respectively. Or try and balance it, for instance if you go a bb dac, complement it with a crystal headphone driver or a IT tpa6120a2, or something similar.

Bob: I don't think Wolfson codecs are neutral. I think most (of the high end one I heard) are quite harsh. Moreover, at least a few years back, they would be inconsistent from batch to batch. The fully integrated low end CODECs are pretty good for the expectations (at least mine)
Did you mean WM8740 as opposed to WM4780?
It is a nice DAC for sure. It is also very expensive and uses up almost twice the power as the PCM1742 at the same supply levels.
I am not sure about the HP amplifiers, I haven't picked one yet. Most likely not the TPA6120, as it needs big supplies and is drunk on power.
Crystal does have a few nice amps, who tend to get high on power as well.
I have used the CS44L11 before with good results. But it is expensive and power hungry too.
Which Crystal part were you thinking about?

Clocking wise, (while I'm sure this has been done before) I'd suggest going with dual oscillators, and have a chip split the difference between them. High accuracy watches use thermal compensation to keep their high speed quartz in check, perhaps you could implement something similar. "

Bob: I will definitelly not use thermal compensation. I think that battery power should not be used to heat up crystals.
However, I intend to use a good quality crystal with tight tolerance.
The PLL part takes less space and less power than dual oscillators because it can also provide clock to the video circuits and chose MCLK/SCK factor between several choices (256,192, etc).

 

[CookieFactory]

1. I'm sorry but regardless of what some people have claimed, it really does need to be pocket-friendly. You have to take size into consideration as this still is a portable device. If it's too big, it just simply will not sell well.

2. Please don't dismiss the importance of an attractive appearance. If you design this thing on the basis that "serious audiophiles," are thinking, "Who cares if it looks good, all I care about is the SQ!" then you will not have an item people are going to want to buy. Sure you'll make sales to niche audiophile markets, but you will have a poor, if any, return on capital and eventually will have to discontinue the model.

3. UI ease of use is paramount. PARAMOUNT! Analyze why the Ipod is such a hot seller. Yes, it is trendy but remove the glitz and glam coating and you find it actually has a very intuitive UI. Ease of use. The user feels like she/he is in control. I can't stress how important this aspect is.

4. Please don't try to do too many things at once. This is an portable music player, do that and do it well. Save recording feature for another unit!

5. Strive for the best headphone amp you can justify. Eliminating the need of an external amp should be a priority. However make sure that those who still want to use an external amp are taken care of and can easily do so.

6. An excellent line out.

4. Should just operate as an external hard drive where media files are just dropped in. Please don't lock us into using proprietary software just to interface with it. Perhaps you could have two pre-made folders, one being media you want for playback which is read by the player, and files you just want to store (i.e. plain old external hard drive) that are ignored.

5. Removeable Battery!! This eliminates 80% of your battery life woes with one easy step. This is one thing I truly wished my Ipod had. However despite the removable battery, strive for 10+ hours on a single battery.

6. 8+ band parametric EQ. Like mentioned earlier no need for presets. Just able to adjust in realtime and ability to save on the fly.

 

[Yono]

Great suggestions Cookiefactory! I can't see any that I disagree on. Although it seems like Neuros Audio has already made their desicion for #4.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helter Skelter Basically, just take the Karma and improve upon it with better durability, higher storage capacity, line/digital out (heck, you can easily put them on the same jack), recording capabilities as has been mentioned, and USB mass storage support. An easily swappable battery (and maybe hard drive?) would just be icing on an already extremely sweet cake.

I totally agree. Just take a Karma and take it to the next level.

 

[jmb]

CookieFactory,

I totally agree...similiar to my suggestions.

I hope Neuros listens.

Ditch the recording capabilities and make a better player.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieFactory 3. UI ease of use is paramount. PARAMOUNT! Analyze why the Ipod is such a hot seller. Yes, it is trendy but remove the glitz and glam coating and you find it actually has a very intuitive UI. Ease of use. The user feels like she/he is in control. I can't stress how important this aspect is.

I would agree that useability is an excellent an extremely important idea, but...

I think brand marketing helped iPod just as much as its simple sleek design and useability.

They (Apple) have always been great at selling a powerful image of their brand as a "lifestyle." Combine that with the aesthetic beuty of their products, and boom, you reap millions of loyal customers who pay top dollar.

I don't think Neuros could do this. But if they make a simple, sleek, very stylish player that has a simple and easy computer interface (windows explorer), they will accomplish half the battle.

As for marketing. They can never compete with apple, unless they made a huge investment in marketing and sold themselves as THE compnay for portable digital entertainment. It would take years, though, and the right commercials (image) to knock Apple of the block in that particular market.

Of course, they would have to back up their smack with the a real deal product.

 

[The Monkey]

I agree with jmb and Cookie Factory.

My other suggestions:

1) I don't need a color screen AT ALL. But I would like a screen that is easy to read in all kinds of light. Also, I want the ability to display as much info about the track as possible.

2) No calendars, stopwatches, contacts, or any of that nonsense.

3) I would love a dedicated volume control, maybe even a stepped attenuator? Could that be done and still keep it portable?

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey 1) I don't need a color screen AT ALL. But I would like a screen that is easy to read in all kinds of light. Also, I want the ability to display as much info about the track as possible.

I agree...but brightness and contrast should be adjustable, so that you can adjust it dowm to protect battery life.

As for info on the screen. I really like the Karma's. It gives all the standard info, plus it has the time in the upper lefthand corner. I like that cause I never wear a watch and hate using my cell phone to check the time.

Plus, you have three options for the Karma display. I like that too. I like the VU meter one. the other one I would replace with dynamic equalizer showing the change in levels as the music plays.

 

[jmb]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Keep it simple!

Neat little bells and whisles, while they may be appealling to the mass market, are generally superfluous.

It is AUDIOPHILE SOUND QUALITY and GAPLESS PLAYBACK that really make portable music lovers drool with anticipation.

Did I say that too loud? Just trying to drive the point home and I'm am getting really excited by the possibilities

 

[Jazper]

I disagree with your engineer regarding the TI TPA6120A2. For such a small chip you get a whole hell of a lot of amplifier. Yes power requirements are higher than buffer/opamp solutions, however with a switchable line out - one that can bypass the chip if needs be Idon't think this will be a major issue. The tpa only draws 30mA, if you were to run dual high quality opamps (eg opa637s) and dual buffers(buf634U) in med-high bandwidth mode you'd find the consumption to be higher.

The one opamp that is underrated imho is the ths4631d - it's a very fast, wide bandwidth opamp that sounds really good with most things. a current favorite of mine, and it can support enough current out (95mA) to drive headphones comfortably. The only issue is that it needs to be kept happy (if the design isn't efficient then you're going to run into oscillation problems).

Quote:

"Also, since this is a video-capable machine, the battery life (at least the consumption) will be higher than non-video-capable engines."

I think you're trying to do too many things at once. There is no one device that can be all things to all people. Focus on a player, a recorder or a video player - do not try to be all these at the same time otherwise you're going to trade one thing for another all the time.

As for the (edit

phillips dac, I was thinking along the lines of the tda1541A and replacements (eg the tda1543 etc)

I think a digital volume control would be a good idea too - that way you avoid problems when the potentiometer gets old.

Quote:

Did you mean WM8740 as opposed to WM4780? It is a nice DAC for sure. It is also very expensive and uses up almost twice the power as the PCM1742 at the same supply levels.

I thought this was no compromise when it came to sound ... if you're going to do it, do it right, don't mess around with half hearted solutions.

Quote:

Clocking wise, (while I'm sure this has been done before) I'd suggest going with dual oscillators, and have a chip split the difference between them. High accuracy watches use thermal compensation to keep their high speed quartz in check, perhaps you could implement something similar. " Bob: I will definitelly not use thermal compensation. I think that battery power should not be used to heat up crystals. However, I intend to use a good quality crystal with tight tolerance. The PLL part takes less space and less power than dual oscillators because it can also provide clock to the video circuits and chose MCLK/SCK factor between several choices (256,192, etc).

I think thermal compensation should at least be an option, a switchable coil does not cost much more in parts..

you're thinking video... I'm thinking audio. if you want this to fly you should focus on audio and do it right. Who is going to watch video on a tiny screen anyhow? I had this functionality on my pocket pc and rarely used it (if ever) for more than showing the device off.


Anyhow These are the things I'd like to see:

1. Hard drive

2. Mono LCD with backlighting al-la palm Vx series

3. no compromise on audio parts

4. ability to use the device as a dac for other devices (eg cdp and computers - if you're going to build in a usb port, you may as well allow the computer user to use the dac on the thing as a soundcard but if you do, do it so that it doesn't need drivers! - but can work better with them), if it is THAT good I want to be able to use it with my CDP, I want to be able to use it with my computer, I want to use it with my dvd player - Toslink in, usb in.. nuff said.

5. high quality Headphone amplifier integrated (a must) - the tpa is only $1 or so - for instance, so there is no reason NOT to.

6. covered RCA jacks that you can expose to use the device as a source component.

7. A battery that lasts at least 10 hours and is user replacable. Perhaps you could negotiate with a digital camera or cell phone manufacturer to use their batteries?

8. the ability to support and socket different types of flash memory (eg CF, SD etc etc) natively. I want extra room to drop files without having to upgrade the player and buy a new one.

9. No using resistor dividers for a virtual ground, there are plenty of good virtual ground chips around that are much more accurate

10. use of low noise components and a shielded case - eg low noise voltage references and such as opposed to noisy diodes. The case should be emi/RF shielded, a faraday cage arangement isn't out of the question on a smaller scale.

11. a high quality headphone jack - this thing is going to have to handle over 1000 plugin/remove cycles I don't want one that's going to come loose, break or otherwise be damaged by normal use, I want solid damnit

12. digital stepped volume control - you can mimic a stepped attenuator with this kind of arrangement and it won't cost much more power.

13. Multiformat lossless and lossy playback - someone please support more than just mp3, ogg, aac and wma! - I want MPC(musepack), I want APE (Monkey's Audio) I want flac!

14. Rechargable from the usb port - a step up dc-dc converter + charging chip from maxim-IC is not going to cost much, sure it is not the ideal source, but they're low enough noise to consider and they are excellent for what they do.

...
jaz out

ps. I am sick of companies going all out and hyping players with huge compromises taken when it comes to quality of their audio.