I won't be playing DSD but I would like a good DAC. Can you recommend good head units that have a good DAC? -and of course the ability to take USB input so I can go from my phone or laptop?
If you're going to look at specs, ie what DAC chips, if they use any fancy output stage circuits and the like, you're not going to find that on headunits other than the flagship models. One tier below (barring those focused for multimedia, just for the best audio) that and they just have a decent BurrBrown (Pioneer) or Cirrus Logic (Alpine) DAC chips, and even then, these second tier HU's have been on the decline because of other developments. A decade ago this started thanks to the iPod, so proprietary audio and control adapters into the CD changer ports were used for them; Alpine also came out with an HDD server in place of the usual 10-CD transport in the changer unit. After that most cars went for cleaner dashboards that don't use standard DIN size receivers so integration processors became a thing. Some relatively affordable headunits with good DACs came out recently because of the high-res marketing craze, and that's all they are - marketing craze. You'll still run into the brick wall of a car cabin's acoustic issues that it will potentially just render the better DAC useless without a DSP to deal with the acoustic issues, which is how we now have integration processors working off stock receivers that can't be easily ripped out still otherwise producing sound good enough to compete in EMMA or IASCA.
USB inputs also only work with smartphones and USB thumb drives, not laptops. At best you have DSP units that have one USB input (note: not all function as audio input - many older units have this but that's to allow the laptop to serve as the interface for a relatively affordable processor that doesn't come with a 1DIN standard size controller.
Basically, either you just cut worrying over the quality of the DAC, or drop $2,000 on a flagship receiver+DSP combo that you will never fully use since you're not actually installing a front entertainment system that would actually use that DSP. At best maybe drop a little under $1,000 on a multimedia 2-DIN receiver that runs Android and then put your music in a thumb drive and run Spotify direct from the headunit. And since you're not even going to put up a system designed to mimic a nearfield system anyway you might as well just get the cheapest USB input receiver and some good enough but cheap speakers for the front to use while driving and then basically run all home audio components for your camper system in the back.
If you look up a T5 high roof transporter, you'll see there is a bit of storage space above the driver and passenger seat due to the high roof. If I go the route of placing a 2 channel system in, then I was thinking of placing them there in a way that allows them to point down (when driving) and when parked, I could have a mechanism that allows them to swivel and point to the rear of the van, which seems like it would be perfect. I don't expect the system to sound as great as it could when driving, but don't expect it to sound bad either, especially with the speakers likely to be bookshelf speakers like the LS50 that apparently have a good full sweet spot. I expect that if I use these speakers and point them to the rear, then they should sound pretty awesome due to the size and form of the space once furnished.
Imaging wise they'll still definitely sound bad, and tonal quality can still be compromised if they're somewhere above your head like that. Personally that swivel system will likely just end up bulky and the moving parts will wear out over time faster than fixed mounts, on top of which, you'd be better off mounting them maximized for listening from the rear than from the front so that if you're sitting in the back you'd at least get better imaging and tone. And then just run a cheap receiver with USB input for your phone or a thumb drive powering some better but not expensive car speakers out in front.
Basically I'm saying that you might as well make the rear camper system sound fantastic than make compromises for it to do both and end up not doing either really well.
So unless you think it will be more better/cost effective to have car speakers dotted around, then I'd like to go the route of a home 2 channel system. Otherwise I'm also considering buying the speakers separate and placing 2 or 4 speakers above the driver and passenger in the same way...
I never said anything about that many car speakers "dotted around." Just put two coaxials in the doors or wherever the stock mounts are jsut for driving. You don't need to have rear speakers for that as they'll just mess up the imaging and even affect the tone. Just hearing one speaker out of sync can make the system sound brighter/harsher than it really is simply because you're hearing the notes earlier from one and delayed on the other. If you're not spending on a processor running a proper system you need to keep the system as simple as possible otherwise you're complicating it without the more complicated means of dealing with the problems that were created.
Just set up a separate audio system built for the LS50 to work with however you configure the rear as a music lounge/camper.
....but then running them through an AMP capable of having 24bit files
An amplifier does not handle 24bits or any bits. Bits are for digital signals and amplifiers handle analogue electronic signals. Even the new "powered DAC" amplifier designs, to oversimply, basically just have the DAC chips handling the "bits" and then feeding the signal to what basically is the amplifier output stage, basically just cutting the other parts of a conventional circuit between them (the DAC output stage, amp input stage, and preamp stage). And even if this is the kind of amp you're referring to, well, good luck with that because these are all still really, really, really expensive. Cheapest I know with this type of design is some Chord portable DAC-HPamp (ie it output stage is only powerful enough for headphones) and the Wadia 151.
But then as I don't know much about car amps, will it even be possible to create a two channel system with a car amp that plays music through 4 speakers (2 left + 2 right) just like a 2 speaker home set up?
What do you mean? There's only one left and one right side speaker on home speakers.
Are you counting the drivers, ie, 2x tweeters and 2x midwoofers? That's still effectively two speakers - there's a passive crossover inside the speaker cabinet (usually on the reverse side of the cable connector panel) that takes the Left or Right signal from the amp and then distributes the frequencies to the tweeter and midwoofer. In a car that passive crossover comes in a lightweight plastic box that you can hide somewhere inside the dashboard.
Your problem here is that adding such speakers to your car without investing in a proper DSP (which luxury cars actually have, the settings just aren't variable unlike in an aftermarket processor) will just cause you more problems. And the processor isn't even the only thing you'll need - you have to mount at least the tweeters inside the cabin at the proper angle so that if it's high up on the dash raising the soundstage you won't get a lot of reflections off the windshield. Still, without a processor, you're making it all worse, because now the driver's or passenger's heads are closest to the nearside tweeter, followed by the nearside midwoofer, then the far side tweeter, then the far side midwoofer. Even if you don't care about it sounding perfect, it can sound worse, ie, very bright, and shrill, just because you're hearing more driver units out of sync with each other.
That's why I suggested door mounted coaxial speakers. You don't care that they'll be perfect anyway, might as well get speakers that are better than stock but won't give you that problem of complicating the fact that you don't own a Maclaren F1 (ie you're not sitting dead center) by having four driver units out sync. The coaxial speakers have a tweeter mounted on or on a grill over the midwoofer, so as far as pathlength variances are concerned, you're no worse off than with stock speakers, while still getting an upgrade in the tone and response range.
-also, playing through a car amp I would also like a head unit that has a good DAC, or be able to use an integrated DAC/DAP to run music straight into the car amp.
OK, let me go through that again.
Head unit that has a good DAC - scroll up and read what I wrote about it above. Don't sweat the DAC because even if you were using an old Nakamichi with a really good DAC in it, the fact that you're sitting off-center will still screw up the sound anyway. And again, no, even if you don't plan on it being perfect, if you really go for an HU with a good DAC, you basically just dropped a lot of money for something you don't intend to be perfect that you could have spent making your rear LS50 camper system perfect.
DAC/DAP, scroll farther up to my first reply - ie, you don't have preamp control, unless you mount this in front where you can reach it.
So again, just make two separate systems in the car. A USB storage compatible slight upgrade sound for the regular car audio system for driving, and then design the rear camper system around the LS50 and some regular home audio components that will work better with it.
Powering the M-DAC won't be an issue. Can't imagine it using much power, and also I'll be having a suitable power inverter in my electrical system, so I'll be able to plug in home appliances like the M-DAC.
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I'll have the main car battery set up with a split relay so that my other 1 or 2 deep cycle batteries also get charged by the engine. Also, my system is either going to have about 70-100 W per 4 channels, or 2 channels, and if I get a sub then maybe an additional 400 W tops. Even just running from the main car battery should be fine for around 6 plus hours without needing to charge. Besides I'll also be incorporating either a 150 or 275 W roof solar panel.
It doesn't use up a lot of power when you have a practically infinite power supply from the grid. That's not the same thing in a car.
Also your 100watts per channel isn't the same as the power draw from wherever the amp will get its power from. A 25watt per channel full Class A two channel amplifier can draw as much as 500watts from the wall. A 100watt per channel, two channel Class A/B amplifier can still potentially draw around 500watts.
Realistically you won't use all that power when driving, but if you're parked at a tailgate party standing farther in an open space, there's a likelihood you'd use as much of the actual rated amp power. So at the very least you're going to need to repeat the math for that, not to mention that the rating for a solar panel assumes perfect and max sunlight hitting it, ie, your car is out in the sun on high noon. Other times of the day with the light at an angle and isn't as intense, you're getting a lot less.
You say you'd rather spend more money on the amp? -but the DAC will make a huge difference no? -I only need the amp to be able to power my system as the DAC will create the main influence of the quality of sound, right?
OK. Let me go through this one again.
On a car audio system (ie the one you can listen to properly while driving), the GIGO principle does
not matter since the very acoustics of a car cabin is screwed up. Unless you have a Maclaren F1, you have the worst kind of seating set up where you sit offset to one side too close to the near side speaker/s. Even in home audio systems that have two seats for the couple who own the house the room is otherwise large enough and both seats far enough but still somewhat centered that the pathlength difference is negligible. On top of which even if you had a Maclaren F1 the only sound system you'll hear practically will be the BMW sound system surrounded by gold behind your head, ie, the V12 engine, because it's a Maclaren F1, not a Rolls Royce. I went for Yokohama AVS dB at one point just to minimize road noise and then slapped on sound dampening all over the car interior.
What boggles my mind is that you're saying you don't need it to be perfect...but you're too obsessed with the quality of the DAC in the HU. Even if you mount an Accuphase CDP in there that does
not change all the aforementioned acoustic problems, which is why people use DSP units, even if they have to take an analogue signal from a stock system and run it through an ADC to run the digital processor that will actually try to correct most of those acoustic issues.
Stop being obsessed with the DAC on the HU because even if you run an Accuphase CDP or Wadia DAC in there they will not change the fact that your sitting too close to speakers on one side can make the system sound shrill overall just because you're hearing the cymbals on one side first and also louder.
On top of which, even in home audio whether headphone or speakers, any practically decent DAC chip on a decent circuit design is
not going to be at any disadvantage next to a really good DAC compared to having an amp that is clipping or breaching audible distortion and noise limits as it struggles to drive speakers or headphones. Bascially I'd much rather have an iPod 6g's 1.2volt line out feeding into a Meier Jazz FF driving an HE400i or feeding into a NAD 304 driving Focal Chorus 607V's than have a Wadia transport and DAC feeding a Sony car amp. Or any Sony amp for that matter, except if I just need a small DAP and I can get a Sony with the Class D S-Master amp for not a lot of money to drive an IEM.
That Sony amp has the High Res sticker on it. But I don't know what that means exactly. If I use a car amp I just need it to be powerful enough and capable of at least 24bit music whilst being good in other ways in which amplifiers have an influence on
And I explained this in my previous post and earlier in this one. Marketing put that sticker there, not engineering. An amp does not deal with 24bit or 16bit or 32bit digital information. It takes an analogue electronic signal and, uh,
amplifies it into a stronger signal that can move a diaphragm on a speaker or headphone. In the process of
amplifying the signal it has to do so to the point of being able to drive the speakers or headphones properly without clipping or basically straight out running out of power, but also, the amp adds distortion and noise - all amps will - and you need to find an amp that doesn't add a lot of that while producing enough power.
You clearly know more than me so forgive me for sounded severely dumb, but just to clarify this then, I could get a good DAP that has a good DAC within it, then connect it straight to the car amp?
You could but you won't have volume control from the DAP's line out.
-how could I even pass a digital signal from the DAP to the AMP? Would the DAP have to have a optical out? do amps only have optical in?
Car amps don't have optical input, car processors do. This is like an HT processor or a soundcard.
Some DSP units have built in amps now. This is like an HT receiver. However, if you don't care about the sound being perfect, then why blow $1,000+++ on a DSP+amp unit that you won't configure? You don't even have to want to join an EMMA competition to have to configure it since out of the box settings would be along the lines of what an EMMA competitor or serious car audio enthusiast would need. Not that he won't tweak the settings, but these DSP units split the signal for each tweeter, midrange, midbass, and the subwoofer, replacign the passive crossovers that speakers typically come with, and therefore, such a DSP will also require you to have at least several physical channels of amplification even for just 2channels of music since it will send out a line signal that only contains the frequencies for each tweeter, midrange, midbass, and subwoofer, because the kind of people who use these processors need it to run this way primarily because splitting the signal at that point allows them to set custom microsecond delays to the nearest and nearer speakers so that the sound from all speakers will reach their heads at roughly the same time, simulating sitting dead center. And since you don't need it to be perfect...basically this is not at all useful for you.
Which means that using a DAP will feed an analogue line signal to the amplifier, but again, you don't have any volume control.
-also if I did run a DAP straight to the amp then I'm wondering how the sound would come out. As I would like it to come out like a normal 2-channel home system via either 2 individual speakers, or 4 (-2 tweeters and 2 woofers).
If you have a DAP hooked up to a normal 2ch car amp then you just wire up the left and right amp channels into the passive crossover that comes with each speaker, same as 2-way home audio speakers except you don't see that there's a passive crossover just like that inside the speaker cabinet.
But again your problem is that the DAP outputs a
fixed voltage line output, so you put a full 1.2V or 1.9V into the amp. Your only other control is the gain knob on the amp.
For volume control I would integrate the DAP into my dashboard somehow. Besides, I'll be road tripping with my girlfriend so she can also adjust the music and volume for me
Putting he DAP within your reach or your girlfriend's does not rewire its line out to pass through a preamp circuit to control the output voltage.
You can use the headphone amp output, but that has even more of a tendency to add noise and distortion since the headphone amp circuit, ie all amp circuits, add noise and distortion as they amplify the signal.
Maybe add passive preamp like a Schiit Sys on the dashboard and hook up the DAP to its input, and then the Sys' output to the car amp.
Or you know...just put a regular car audio HU with USB input out in front and get a slightly upgraded coaxial pair of speakers instead of obsessing over the quality of components to be used in a system that you don't care about having perfect sound anyway, you might as well keep it as simple and convenient as it can be. You only complicate things if it actually makes it perform better, like how each individual Panzer V is a better tank but is hard to service or that EMMA competitors and serious car audio enthusiasts will run eight physical amp channels for a 2ch audio system because they need to add delays to the nearer driver units.
-Is this because there's only one main unit that can accept a digital signal via USB from the laptop to the main unit? -that being the expensive Sony RSX-GS9 -becuase if I remember correctly it can take a USB signal in straight to the DAC. No other head units capable of just taking in a signal like this so it gets processed by the DAC and out into the amp?
Its because of how the USB controller runs. When you hook up a smartphone or USB thumb drive in there the HU becomes the host device, even if you're using a smartphone running Spotify. A laptop likely will not suddenly just work being told to become a host device. The laptop has to be the host device and even then the USB DAC it hooks up to has to run with generic USB drivers or specific drivers (Sony isn't offering that for download so go figure). Basically what you're trying to do is like hooking up a smartphone to a laptop/desktop computer, and then trying to have a music player app on the smartphone play music stored in the laptop/desktop computer. Not gonna happen.
You can try it if you can return it with no repacking fees if it doesn't work.
The laptop will indeed be used in the back, but when using my laptop I'd like to be able to use my audio quest cable to go all the way to head unit or desktop DAC or car amp
If you're going to use it in the back then set up a separate DAC-Amp (ie some
home audio speaker amps have digital input, just like some DAC-HPamps built into the same box) there to drive the LS50.
I'll have the main car battery set up with a split relay so that my other 1 or 2 deep cycle batteries also get charged by the engine. Also, my system is either going to have about 70-100 W per 4 channels, or 2 channels, and if I get a sub then maybe an additional 400 W tops. Even just running from the main car battery should be fine for around 6 plus hours without needing to charge. Besides I'll also be incorporating either a 150 or 275 W roof solar panel.
If you look up a T5 high roof transporter, you'll see there is a bit of storage space above the driver and passenger seat due to the high roof. If I go the route of placing a 2 channel system in, then I was thinking of placing them there in a way that allows them to point down (when driving) and when parked, I could have a mechanism that allows them to swivel and point to the rear of the van, which seems like it would be perfect. I don't expect the system to sound as great as it could when driving, but don't expect it to sound bad either, especially with the speakers likely to be bookshelf speakers like the LS50 that apparently have a good full sweet spot. I expect that if I use these speakers and point them to the rear, then they should sound pretty awesome due to the size and form of the space once furnished. So unless you think it will be more better/cost effective to have car speakers dotted around, then I'd like to go the route of a home 2 channel system. Otherwise I'm also considering buying the speakers separate and placing 2 or 4 speakers above the driver and passenger in the same way, but then running them through an AMP capable of having 24bit files. But then as I don't know much about car amps, will it even be possible to create a two channel system with a car amp that plays music through 4 speakers (2 left + 2 right) just like a 2 speaker home set up? -also, playing through a car amp I would also like a head unit that has a good DAC, or be able to use an integrated DAC/DAP to run music straight into the car amp.
Powering the M-DAC won't be an issue. Can't imagine it using much power, and also I'll be having a suitable power inverter in my electrical system, so I'll be able to plug in home appliances like the M-DAC.
You say you'd rather spend more money on the amp? -but the DAC will make a huge difference no? -I only need the amp to be able to power my system as the DAC will create the main influence of the quality of sound, right?
That Sony amp has the High Res sticker on it. But I don't know what that means exactly. If I use a car amp I just need it to be powerful enough and capable of at least 24bit music whilst being good in other ways in which amplifiers have an influence on.
You clearly know more than me so forgive me for sounded severely dumb, but just to clarify this then, I could get a good DAP that has a good DAC within it, then connect it straight to the car amp? -how could I even pass a digital signal from the DAP to the AMP? Would the DAP have to have a optical out? do amps only have optical in? -also if I did run a DAP straight to the amp then I'm wondering how the sound would come out. As I would like it to come out like a normal 2-channel home system via either 2 individual speakers, or 4 (-2 tweeters and 2 woofers).
For volume control I would integrate the DAP into my dashboard somehow. Besides, I'll be road tripping with my girlfriend so she can also adjust the music and volume for me.
-Is this because there's only one main unit that can accept a digital signal via USB from the laptop to the main unit? -that being the expensive Sony RSX-GS9 -becuase if I remember correctly it can take a USB signal in straight to the DAC. No other head units capable of just taking in a signal like this so it gets processed by the DAC and out into the amp?
The laptop will indeed be used in the back, but when using my laptop I'd like to be able to use my audio quest cable to go all the way to head unit or desktop DAC or car amp.
I'll have the main car battery set up with a split relay so that my other 1 or 2 deep cycle batteries also get charged by the engine. Also, my system is either going to have about 70-100 W per 4 channels, or 2 channels, and if I get a sub then maybe an additional 400 W tops. Even just running from the main car battery should be fine for around 6 plus hours without needing to charge. Besides I'll also be incorporating either a 150 or 275 W roof solar panel.
-I'd like to say that I really deeply appreciate your help so far, and any further advice will again be very much appreciated. Without people like you I'd be wasting heaps of time in studying all this. So again, thanks!!!
