[vedran70]

Well, this is my current listening setup: notebook HP NX7400/desktop HP DX7400 as transport for mostly flac audio, foobar2k, onboard audio and very cheap philips shp2000 headphones. I listen to rock/jazz/classical mostly @work and sometimes @home. I didn't notice any noise or hiss or hum playing through onboard audio and my headphones are relatively confortable.
Now, I was planning on investing no more than $200 into new headphones. Headphones need to be closed because I'm not alone in the office and I was eyeing sennheiser HD215 (I like detachable coiled cable

). There are no brands to choose from in my town. Only Senn, AKG and Philips

. After that I would like to invest in some usb-dac but I was wondering how much would I gain? For example, does it make sense to upgrade to something like HOTAUDIO BIT-PERFECT USB DAC HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER? Or to direct all funds to headphones and save money for something better?

 

[Armaegis]

In your price range, I would get a $150 set of cans and the $50 usb dac. I have the dac destroyer by hot audio and quite like it. The bit-perfect should improve your sound quality quite a bit (laptop sound is generally terrible) and give you enough power to drive whatever headphones you buy in that price bracket.

 

[Gilly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif In your price range, I would get a $150 set of cans and the $50 usb dac. I have the dac destroyer by hot audio and quite like it. The bit-perfect should improve your sound quality quite a bit (laptop sound is generally terrible) and give you enough power to drive whatever headphones you buy in that price bracket.

What he said! I have no idea how prices roll in your neck of the woods (I'm now based in Sweden of all places

), but what he suguested sounds very good. I would imaginine even a $50 DAC would destroy your sound card in the laptop, for the reasons Armaegis said

 

[Graphicism]

I also have the NX7400 and the headphone out stinks. For $200 I'd suggest buying a Zero DAC/Amp for around $125 used with upgraded opamps and spending the remainder on some JVC RX700s or ATH M50 perhaps. Further down the line you can upgrade your headphones and keep the DAC.

 

[vedran70]

Thank you all for your feedback. I think I'll stay with my original idea to spend at least 75% on new headphones because I think there's the biggest gain and get myself $50 usb dac just to eliminate onboard audio. And after that I need to listen and listen....

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vedran70 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you all for your feedback. I think I'll stay with my original idea to spend at least 75% on new headphones because I think there's the biggest gain and get myself $50 usb dac just to eliminate onboard audio. And after that I need to listen and listen....

It's not but that's what the new people do.. then if you're still interested in headphones in a couple years you'll come back and do it right.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You're on the right track. The headphones will make the biggest difference by far. If you're not hearing any noise from the headphone jack of your laptop, in fact, put all the money in your phones, just make sure they are very efficient so you don't need an amp to get enough headroom with them. Denons might do very well in your situation. Order them from someplace with a good return policy. If they make your headphone out sound bad, you can always send them back and split the money on outboard DAC. You do, however, understand that the outboard unit will have to be a DAC/amp combo, yes?

Listen to the music, not audiophools on the internet.

P

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not but that's what the new people do.. then if you're still interested in headphones in a couple years you'll come back and do it right.

Within his budget, I think the 75/25 can to amp split is good. There's no point spending the money on a dac/amp if he doesn't have decent cans to enjoy the sound. At most I might push it 50/50 with something like the nuforce icon mobile or maybe the upcoming FiiO E7 and then whatever $100 headphones you want.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not but

Proof?

Transducers are going to vary the most . . . well, assuming you jump brand to brand or jump to a model that measures hugely different (Grado's lower end all pretty much sounds and measures similar with bowl pads).

Besides, if you're going to advise someone to do it "right" then you wouldn't be suggesting a FOTM DAC/amp . . . especially if you're claiming it will make that large of a difference . . .

/my two cents.

 

[Graphicism]

Alright let me clarify.. headphones will give you the biggest difference in sound however this should not be confused with the best sound. If a friend of mine said he had $200 to spend on a headphone, and my wanting to wow him over with the best possibly sound I would suggest getting the amp and DAC and spending the leftovers on headphones. The DAC for starters is a no brainer; unless you have a $100+ soundcard you likely don't have a good source from the get-go, no matter how good your headphones are. Then comes the obvious issue of power, full sized headphones need a full sized amp, portables just don't cut it IMO. Let alone running directly from an MP3 player or laptop, they don't have built in amps and the sound will be empty and lifeless, again no matter how good your headphones. The fiio, cmoy, penguin amps all that are rubbish, again IMO, they do nothing but color the sound and add bass, the added bass is the delusion of better sound for those that don't know better.

And you don't need to spend a lot.. I've had a $700+ Singlepower tube amp, $250 Meier Headfive and yet greatly prefer the Zero that I have currently which costs around $125 and has a built in DAC identical to that of the burr-brown in a Squeezebox.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Alright let me clarify.. headphones will give you the biggest difference in sound however this should not be confused with the best sound.

Without good transducers there's no sound worth hearing IMO. Getting off the onboard sound is the first thing to do, but that doesn't cost much honestly.

Either way one will have to settle for a lesser DAC or a lesser set of headphones at this point. I think the biggest audible difference will be in the headphones, which you seem to agree on.

Hence as long as he gets off the onboard it should be alright, for the time being. Either way he will probably seek upgrades later.

Quote:

If a friend of mine said he had $200 to spend on a headphone, and my wanting to wow him over with the best possibly sound I would suggest getting the amp and DAC and spending the leftovers on headphones. The DAC for starters is a no brainer; unless you have a $100+ soundcard you likely don't have a good source from the get-go, no matter how good your headphones are. Then comes the obvious issue of power, full sized headphones need a full sized amp, portables just don't cut it IMO.

I use a Mini^3 with my K601s. You have to know what the lowest and max impedance of the headphones are to honestly judge whether an amp will work or not. There's some crappy full sized amps out there . . . *cough*RA1*cough*

Quote:

Let alone running directly from an MP3 player or laptop, they don't have built in amps and the sound will be empty and lifeless, again no matter how good your headphones. The fiio, cmoy, penguin amps all that are rubbish, again IMO, they do nothing but color the sound and add bass, the added bass is the delusion of better sound for those that don't know better.

The problem is they're primarily voltage amplifiers. For a amp to really follow an impedance curve properly being able to deliver enough current is important too.

They don't do any bass boost on their own, and they'll measure well at a so-so load.

Quote:

And you don't need to spend a lot.. I've had a $700+ Singlepower tube amp, $250 Meier Headfive and yet greatly prefer the Zero that I have currently which costs around $125 and has a built in DAC identical to that of the burr-brown in a Squeezebox.

The problem I have with it is I can't find if it has a decent reclocking circuit (hell, I'm not even sure it does have one). Beyond that the power supply isn't entirely up to snuff, but at least it uses good regulators to help mitigate the problem.

 

[xnor]

always exciting to read this crap Graphicism

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Either way one will have to settle for a lesser DAC or a lesser set of headphones at this point. I think the biggest audible difference will be in the headphones, which you seem to agree on.

Yeah I agree there is a bigger change in sound going from headphone to headphone as opposed to SS amp to SS amp, however this isn't about the biggest noticeable difference but the best possible sound for $200.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hence as long as he gets off the onboard it should be alright, for the time being. Either way he will probably seek upgrades later.

Well my thinking is if you get a half decent amp/DAC that's something you can always work from, like the foundations of a building it will always be there, you improve what goes in it, i.e. upgrade headphones keep the amp/DAC. There are people here who have 5+ pairs of headphones and have yet to get an amp or even a DAC better than there PC soundcard... new guys come along and don't want the hassle of an amp, I personally think thats flawed thinking because you aren't really hearing what your 5 pairs of headphones have to offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif I use a Mini^3 with my K601s. You have to know what the lowest and max impedance of the headphones are to honestly judge whether an amp will work or not. There's some crappy full sized amps out there . . . *cough*RA1*cough*

Have you tried the K601s with a beefier amp for comparison? Impedance only plays a small role in determining what amp to pair with the headphone. Take the D2000, 25Ohm I think, extremely transparent, the better the source/dac and amp the better they sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem I have with it is I can't find if it has a decent reclocking circuit (hell, I'm not even sure it does have one). Beyond that the power supply isn't entirely up to snuff, but at least it uses good regulators to help mitigate the problem.

I bought the Zero... kinda a long story I'll cut short... I bought the JVC RX700 for $33 some months ago now when I wasn't really into headphone listening as I went with a speaker setup. After hearing how good they sound compared to my D2000s I sold the Denons and bought the Zero. After listening to the RX700 on the Zero it sparked off my interest again with headphones and have since bought 6 other pairs of headphones, more notably the HFI-780s which are now my main cans.

If it wasn't for the Zero I would have likely not known any better, to sum up a $33 headphone on a $125 amp/DAC sounds much much better than a standalone $300 headphone that I paid at the time.

Addition: Obviously every suggestion I put forth is IMO, however at the same time I suggest with mindset that the newcomer be thrilled with the sound, thus peaking there interest and sticking around making this an even better, livelier hobby. So many come and go with a $$ headphone people suggest and you never see them again, those that start out with a decent source/amp/DAC tend to stick around. Something to think about...

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I agree there is a bigger change in sound going from headphone to headphone as opposed to SS amp to SS amp, however this isn't about the biggest noticeable difference but the best possible sound for $200.

The question is whether they will get the best possible sound for them with only $75 headphones.

Quote:

Well my thinking is if you get a half decent amp/DAC that's something you can always work from, like the foundations of a building it will always be there, you improve what goes in it, i.e. upgrade headphones keep the amp/DAC. There are people here who have 5+ pairs of headphones and have yet to get an amp or even a DAC better than there PC soundcard... new guys come along and don't want the hassle of an amp, I personally think thats flawed thinking because you aren't really hearing what your 5 pairs of headphones have to offer.

I obviously believe you should power the headphones properly. It's a matter of balance though.

Quote:

Have you tried the K601s with a beefier amp for comparison? Impedance only plays a small role in determining what amp to pair with the headphone. Take the D2000, 25Ohm I think, extremely transparent, the better the source/dac and amp the better they sound.

Yes I have, and have heard no difference. As for what to pair you have to consider damping factor and other measurements too. However if all other measurements are good matching impedance properly is necessary. At least when talking solid state . . . if you want to talk tubes and subjectivity that's something else.

Quote:

I bought the Zero... kinda a long story I'll cut short... I bought the JVC RX700 for $33 some months ago now when I wasn't really into headphone listening as I went with a speaker setup. After hearing how good they sound compared to my D2000s I sold the Denons and bought the Zero. After listening to the RX700 on the Zero it sparked off my interest again with headphones and have since bought 6 other pairs of headphone, more notably the HFI-780s which are now my main cans. If it wasn't for the Zero I would have likely not known any better, to sum up a $33 headphone on a $125 amp/DAC sounds much much better than a standalone $300 headphone that I paid at the time.

The question is what was your source before? As we know onboard itself is generally the problem . . . once you get offboard you can make improvements but only by so much assuming what you have is at least of above average quality.

 

[OneSec]

Seeing lots of debates lately... Anyway constructive criticism is fine I guess.

Just something from my own experience. I am current using cheap headphones, and hear no hissing or what so ever. A friend drop by one day and pass me a westone 3 IEM (he's the evil who introduced me here). and I hear a new dimension of music, unfortunately, associate with a new definition to noise as well!

However I test the IEM against my home system, my office system and another notebook, and notebook seems to have the least noise / hissing of them all.

So it really depends on your future headphone. If you are getting a set of sensitive headphone then chances are they will reveal your computer noise, and this is really true if you are going down the IEMs path.

I would really suggest to shortlist a couple headphones. (one sticky note on this forum provides a good start). Then find places that would allow you to test them out. Bring your notebook to the shop, and test the headphone on your notebook.

Let your ear decide if you need a external sound card. And I have very enjoyable experience testing out gears and speaking to experts face to face.

I think we are pretty much on the same boat, looking for same kind of new experience and sound that would give us pleasant surprises. Of cause my experience is no way near the two experts above, just offering my personal experience.

From economical sense if you get hook, you probably wont settle for a 25$ USB DACAMP, and so it may better to get a 200$ headphone, and get another budget on a decent USB DAC AMP. I think this is what Graph means.

However on the other side, if you are willing to pay a little extra for a usb amp dac, you get to explore the new offerings - This is what Shike means.

Though you will most likely prompt for more immediate upgrade from your "not so decent" usb amp dac, but you can pass on your usb amp dac to your friend and get another victim hook up

Welcome aboard, and sorry for your wallet.