[haloxt]

xing3ds, do you want a musical sound or a purist, as close to fidelity for the money sound?
 
I would also consider FUN B, and Sparrow B, BUT REMEMBER TO ASK FOR WM8741 chip for only $15 more, do not get ad1852 dac chip. You save a lot of money, and according to audio-gd, there is only a small audible difference between version A and B when they use the same dac chip.
 
I have yet to listen to wm8741 (I would've if audio-gd wasn't giving me such a hard time ordering atm -_-) or es9018, but judging by my experience with some other wolfson dac chips, I think wm8741 would be safer to try than es9018 if you do not know if you prefer a musical or a purist sound.
 
I view the dac19 which uses pcm1704 as a bang for buck for purists or people aiming for real fidelity to recording. ES9018 has been described by some to be slightly even more neutral than pcm1704, and if so, I would warn people to consider if they want musicality or closest fidelity, because of they want musicality, I think there is a very good chance they will prefer the wm8741 in the Fun/sparrow. That is not to say they won't aim for fidelity later on in this hobby, but if you want musicality the NFB-11 may not deliver.
 
NFB-11 does use diamond differential for low gain amp output, which according to audio-gd should sound a bit softer/warmer than the high gain acss output. And of course it's promo priced atm, while fun and sparrow are not.

 

[xing3ds]

Quote:

I meant the local headphone forum. See the link in my signature. 

OMG.. I just know that we have local headphone forum..
thanks

 

[xing3ds]

Quote:

xing3ds, do you want a musical sound or a purist, as close to fidelity for the money sound?
 
I would also consider FUN B, and Sparrow B, BUT REMEMBER TO ASK FOR WM8741 chip for only $15 more, do not get ad1852 dac chip. You save a lot of money, and according to audio-gd, there is only a small audible difference between version A and B when they use the same dac chip.
 
I have yet to listen to wm8741 (I would've if audio-gd wasn't giving me such a hard time ordering atm -_-) or es9018, but judging by my experience with some other wolfson dac chips, I think wm8741 would be safer to try than es9018 if you do not know if you prefer a musical or a purist sound.
 
I view the dac19 which uses pcm1704 as a bang for buck for purists or people aiming for real fidelity to recording. ES9018 has been described by some to be slightly even more neutral than pcm1704, and if so, I would warn people to consider if they want musicality or closest fidelity, because of they want musicality, I think there is a very good chance they will prefer the wm8741 in the Fun/sparrow. That is not to say they won't aim for fidelity later on in this hobby, but if you want musicality the NFB-11 may not deliver.
 
NFB-11 does use diamond differential for low gain amp output, which according to audio-gd should sound a bit softer/warmer than the high gain acss output. And of course it's promo priced atm, while fun and sparrow are not.

thanks for the Great input, haloxt.
 
I guess I have to go buy one and hear it from myself... so that I can relate better to what you and the other folks are saying in this forum..
 
because i have no idea to what musical is or what fidelity is...
 
 

 

[cheaphifi]

Quote:

thanks for the Great input, haloxt.
 
I guess I have to go buy one and hear it from myself... so that I can relate better to what you and the other folks are saying in this forum..
 
because i have no idea to what musical is or what fidelity is...
 
 

It's just a matter of taste, but for example, i've already heard before some DAC units described as "cold" or "clinical" and the cold and clinical aspect was considered as the "drawback" of the detailed sound... And before to get my DAC 19 DSP i was thinking that all the DAC with an detailed sound must be a little "lifeless" compared to a fun and "musical" flavor DAC... But with Audio GD it's not the case, even a "neutral" unit produce a "living" and enjoyable music (DAC 19 is described as neutral but's the sound is all but boring).

 

[haloxt]

I think with more precise and quick microdetail, the less musicality/pleasantness is perceived, a reduction in coloration due to technical ability. If you play something with repetitive lyrics or a very obvious tonal center with only slight  deviations, it will sound more varied moment to moment with more resolving gear, but sound more like repetitive (but pleasant!) sound bites with less resolving gear. I think sparrow, dac19mk3, and dac9mk3, are all neutral, but they have different degrees of microdetail resolution.
 
If I could rate things on a variability in nuance/microdetail scale with 5G ipod on one end and dac9mk3+phoenix on the other end, I would do something like this:
 
ipod: brassy pleasant undetailed droning.
iriver H120: 25, neutral pleasant undetailed droning
cowon q5w: 40, engaging with decent timbre variation
sparrow with ad1852 or modified-to-neutral wm8740: 65, engaging with quite good timbre variation, faithful enough to give a very good grasp of the gist of a song, heavy metal can be quickly fatiguing.
dac19mk3+phoenix RCA single-ended: 80, less catchy than sparrow but still has some pleasant microdetail warmth, appreciation of music starts to shift to microdetail and precise nuances. Quantity and precision of microdetail isn't excessively attention grabbing, I think it is a good mix of pleasantness and seriousness, but if you are a hardcore detail and soundstage freak you would be someone who would appreciate upgrading to balanced.
dac9mk3+phoenix balanced: to enjoy fully requires you to listen critically unless you're listening to background music. Many instruments will ring with great microdetail and bass authority, quick and precise vocal modulations and echoes try to demand your conscious attention. Can be too serious to be your only audio setup. Luckily there is single-ended output when you don't want to be excessively consciously distracted.
 
Except for the Ipod 5G, I enjoy all of these so much I could listen to them for hours on end, and I do like to switch things up because they all present music very differently from each other due to pretty different technical ability.

 

[xing3ds]

Quote:

I think with more precise and quick microdetail, the less musicality/pleasantness is perceived, a reduction in coloration due to technical ability. If you play something with repetitive lyrics or a very obvious tonal center with only slight  deviations, it will sound more varied moment to moment with more resolving gear, but sound more like repetitive (but pleasant!) sound bites with less resolving gear. I think sparrow, dac19mk3, and dac9mk3, are all neutral, but they have different degrees of microdetail resolution.
 
If I could rate things on a variability in nuance/microdetail scale with 5G ipod on one end and dac9mk3+phoenix on the other end, I would do something like this:
 
ipod: brassy pleasant undetailed droning.
iriver H120: 25, neutral pleasant undetailed droning
cowon q5w: 40, engaging with decent timbre variation
sparrow with ad1852 or modified-to-neutral wm8740: 65, engaging with quite good timbre variation, faithful enough to give a very good grasp of the gist of a song, heavy metal can be quickly fatiguing.
dac19mk3+phoenix RCA single-ended: 80, less catchy than sparrow but still has some pleasant microdetail warmth, appreciation of music starts to shift to microdetail and precise nuances. Quantity and precision of microdetail isn't excessively attention grabbing, I think it is a good mix of pleasantness and seriousness, but if you are a hardcore detail and soundstage freak you would be someone who would appreciate upgrading to balanced.
dac9mk3+phoenix balanced: to enjoy fully requires you to listen critically unless you're listening to background music. Many instruments will ring with great microdetail and bass authority, quick and precise vocal modulations and echoes try to demand your conscious attention. Can be too serious to be your only audio setup. Luckily there is single-ended output when you don't want to be excessively consciously distracted.
 
Except for the Ipod 5G, I enjoy all of these so much I could listen to them for hours on end, and I do like to switch things up because they all present music very differently from each other due to pretty different technical ability.

wow.. thanks for the explaination.
very very helpful.
 
so you are saying that.. when people say more musical/pleasantness means the gears is a "more resolving gear" (meaning better gear) ?
or what i understand is totally wrong?
 
 
 

 

[haloxt]

No, you got it wrong hehe.
 
I'm just saying with greater dynamics and precision of detail, there can be a sense of less pleasantness. What I like about mp3 players is they make the sound very simple, and when you try to listen critically it sounds like repetitive background music. With higher fidelity gear, the music becomes more complex. I think gear in the price range of the sparrow/fun is a good compromise between pleasantness and fidelity. The NFB-11 may be too "true to recording" for your taste, but who knows? I'm just warning you, if you don't know what sound signature you like, it may be safer to avoid the NFB-11. But it is promo priced, so maybe you would like to give it a listen.
 
I want to correct myself when I said low gain has diamond differential, I think I got it wrong, it is just diamond amp output not the musical diamond differential. Sorry!

 

[xing3ds]

 
Quote:

No, you got it wrong hehe.
 
I'm just saying with greater dynamics and precision of detail, there can be a sense of less pleasantness. What I like about mp3 players is they make the sound very simple, and when you try to listen critically it sounds like repetitive background music. With higher fidelity gear, the music becomes more complex. I think gear in the price range of the sparrow/fun is a good compromise between pleasantness and fidelity. The NFB-11 may be too "true to recording" for your taste, but who knows? I'm just warning you, if you don't know what sound signature you like, it may be safer to avoid the NFB-11. But it is promo priced, so maybe you would like to give it a listen.
 
I want to correct myself when I said low gain has diamond differential, I think I got it wrong, it is just diamond amp output not the musical diamond differential. Sorry!

hehee.. thanks for the correction.
 
I just want to make sure I got it right this time, so you are saying ...  a gear that is considered more neutral will cause more of "a sense of less pleasantness" or a more resolving gear will cause that? and for me, who are not sure about sound signature, choosing NFB-11 can be too "true to recording" (which also means great dynamics and precision of detail).
but there is also a chance that I like those sound signature.
am i right this time?
 
hahaha.. I'm feel very stupid and learning at the same time..
 
up to this moment, I have only heard HD-555, Shure SE530, and Sennheiser PX100. Can what we are discussing "Neutral vs. Musical/warm" relate to this cans?

 

[haloxt]

Neutral gear might cause a sense of "less pleasantness", but it is more dependent on the music. Imo, neutral is revealing of the recording, if the recording is actually musical/euphonious (not that common), then it will sound that way with neutral gear. With colored/musical gear, there will be some kind of coloration that is heard regardless of album being played.
 
Higher technical ability, which imo also implies EXACTNESS, not solely how fast the transient is or how vast the soundstage is, I believe has the tendency to add to a feeling of more realism and less of a dreamy/pleasant sound. Sometimes colored gear can have more dynamics than neutral and still sound more musical than neutral, I think it is accurate dynamics that contribute to neutrality.
 
If you are uncertain about whether or not you want to hear faithfulness to recording, just go for a wm8741 dac/amp like sparrow or fun, but I suggest version B with wm8741 added to save money.
 
If you suspect you may be a purist audiophile, try the promo priced NFB-11.
 

 

[lessblue]

Quote:

Neutral gear might cause a sense of "less pleasantness", but it is more dependent on the music. Imo, neutral is revealing of the recording, if the recording is actually musical/euphonious (not that common), then it will sound that way with neutral gear. With colored/musical gear, there will be some kind of coloration that is heard regardless of album being played.
 
Higher technical ability, which imo also implies EXACTNESS, not solely how fast the transient is or how vast the soundstage is, I believe has the tendency to add to a feeling of more realism and less of a dreamy/pleasant sound. Sometimes colored gear can have more dynamics than neutral and still sound more musical than neutral, I think it is accurate dynamics that contribute to neutrality.
 
If you are uncertain about whether or not you want to hear faithfulness to recording, just go for a wm8741 dac/amp like sparrow or fun, but I suggest version B with wm8741 added to save money.
 
If you suspect you may be a purist audiophile, try the promo priced NFB-11.
 

I'm in a similar situation as xing3Ds and wonder how the selection of headphone may come into play regarding the different chips. The usual description of Sennheiser HD650s are that they are laid back and slightly rolled off in the highs. Would the Sabre ES9108 chip be well suited for these cans (paired with a Woo Audio WA6 tube amp)?

 

[haloxt]

I have no idea, haven't heard any of the gear in question

. I just know the continuity/smoothness of wolfson dac chips I have listened to is easy on the ears and is probably less likely to disappoint, perhaps more likely a permanent purchase than a es9018 dac. The es9018 might scare away some people by being too honest to recording, but I bet it has really good sound quality for the price right now.

 

[haloxt]

There's an analogy I know to describe a very neutral and technically capable setup vs a colored setup but usually refrain from saying it because it may seem kooky. Some genres of music are downright melancholic, a good example is Eva Cassidy's album "Eva by Heart", especially songs "Say Goodbye", "Nightbird", and "Waly Waly". When you listen to these songs with a colored setup, whether slightly or very colored, you won't get drawn in by the coldness or melancholy of the music because you have a warmness or softness that acts like an anchor, but neither do you fully hear the beauty of the mood exactly. With very neutral and technically capable setup, you will be more easily drawn into the exact mood of the recording, whether it is happy or emo or half and half or another emotion. In other words, dead neutral is more variable in expression, slightly colored neutral like wm8741 would be less variable and probably less technically capable, BUT it would have a smoothness that I suspect is a good thing to many people's hears.

 

[xing3ds]

Quote:

Neutral gear might cause a sense of "less pleasantness", but it is more dependent on the music. Imo, neutral is revealing of the recording, if the recording is actually musical/euphonious (not that common), then it will sound that way with neutral gear. With colored/musical gear, there will be some kind of coloration that is heard regardless of album being played.
 
Higher technical ability, which imo also implies EXACTNESS, not solely how fast the transient is or how vast the soundstage is, I believe has the tendency to add to a feeling of more realism and less of a dreamy/pleasant sound. Sometimes colored gear can have more dynamics than neutral and still sound more musical than neutral, I think it is accurate dynamics that contribute to neutrality.
 
If you are uncertain about whether or not you want to hear faithfulness to recording, just go for a wm8741 dac/amp like sparrow or fun, but I suggest version B with wm8741 added to save money.
 
If you suspect you may be a purist audiophile, try the promo priced NFB-11.
 

hi haloxt,
 
thanks.
 
I just send an email to audio-gd to buy NFB-11.
so, we'll see... if I do like neutral...
 
at this moment, does upgrading the power cable means anything?
 

 

[K3cT]

Nope. You're better off upgrading your headphones. 

 

[haloxt]

Cheap 14 awg stock power cables, or if you want to get fancy, make your own with home depot cable and fake oyaide power connectors on ebay.