[David Howland]

Hello,


 


I'm hoping you guys will help me out. I'm new here but I'm looking at breaking out of the intro audiophile market and getting closer to the high end market. So far I've stuck around the $150-$200 range. I didn't see a sticky with instructions so I made my own list.


 


Budget: <$350 (Preferably closer to $300)


 


Source: PC with Original Schiit Modi/ Magni, possibly mobile LG G4 Occasionally. Listening to 16-bit FLAC from CDs.


 


Isolation: Minimal to none


 


Portability/ Privacy: Not Important, would be mostly for home use


 


Type: Open


 


Music:


 

• Classic Rock (Pink Floyd, Rush, The Doors, David Bowie, The Police)
• Progressive Rock (Muse, QotSA, Tool, Dream Theater, Woodkid)
• Electronic (Daft Punk, DeadMau5, Skream!, Benga, Amon Tobin)
• Blues (Arctic Monkeys, The Black Keys)
• Classical

 


I have a Schiit Stack and would like to grow out of that with this new headphone. Currently, I have Sennheiser HD555s, Sennheiser HD380s, and Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pros. My HD555s are very worn out, but after having experience with Closed Headphones for so long I cleaned up the old trusty 555s and I was immediately floored by the soundstage and positional audio in games I'd been missing out on in the years they were ratty and collecting dust in my drawer. I love the closed sound of my DT-770s because they isolate most of the noise while still having a nice detailed sound. Honestly, I kinda hate my HD380s at this point because they are not the most comfortable and don't really provide a lot of punch. They sound very close to the head and can sometimes give me a headache.


 


Currently, I'm looking at the Fidelio X2, the HD600 and 650 and the HiFiman HE-400S and HE-400I (used ~$300). What I'm looking for is neutral sound (maybe a bit biased toward mids/ highs) and wide soundstage. Although I like a lot of Bassy music, I don't listen at high volume and I HATE when the vocals and highs get distorted so I can't hear them. I really like the comfort Sennheiser offers but I am really disappointed in their build quality. The logo is wearing off on the headband of my 555s and the pad underneath the band is falling off. The hinges on each earcup have cracked and they just look hideous.I'm hoping that has changed in the 600s and 650. I heard the build quality on the X2s was superb but it has a very deep sound signature. HiFiman HE-400s build quality is cheap, while the 400I is very good but is too expensive for me to justify new. I hope this helps you help me. Thanks! I'm really grateful for any help I get as I've been getting nowhere in my own head the past few days!


Edit
Sorry for the quick Edit. Not sure if this might change any recommendation, but the upgrade to my setup will be an Amp/ DAC setup in about two years will be around $400-$500 (probably the Magni/ Modi 2 or Jotenheim), followed next in a year or two will be a $500-$750 Headphone. That seems to be my 'upgrade pattern' so to speak.

 

[buke9]

Wow you just went from $350 headphones to a $1250 setup in a hour.

 

[David Howland]

That is my next upgrade, as in not this one haha. Won't be getting the new Amp/ DAC for a year or two. Won't be getting a new pair of headphones for 3-4 years. I'm saying I'd want this headphone to be worth listening on a $400-$500 DAC/Amp for a few years after spending a good few years on the Magni/ Modi I have

 

[TehDoge]

HD600 build is way better than the 555, are they foam modded? The sound stage is smaller but with better separation. I didn't care for the X2, can't be considered neutral with that bass hump.

 

[David Howland]

Well, no mods for me. I appreciate the input on build quality. That is my main concern with the Sennheisers. I want these to last for many years. I'm leaning toward Sennheisers. If I want a better listening experience what do you guys think between the 600 and 650? I may get the X2s later if I absolutely go crazy before I'm crazy enough for the next large jump in price. I'm thinking I might have to wait a bit before I get into the meat and potatoes of HiFiman. I'd love to keep jumping brands like a psychopath but I need focus, and the HD380s taught me to stick with well reviewed and well known models and brands. EVERYONE talks about the 600, and often compare to the 650, so research is easy. What do you guys think between the Sennheisers?

 

[TehDoge]

Based on your preference, go with the 600, it's my personal choice between the two, the 650 does sound nicer, but the 600 just has a better tonal balance.
 

 
I'd also say after the 600s the X2 is going to be a serious waste of time (to buy, still have a listen if you can), go for the HiFiMans if you loose it, enter the world of planar bass!

 

[David Howland]

I totally did a stupid thing and bought $300 headphones yesterday. The HD600s will be mine on Monday. I couldn't wait to listen to them at a shop so I just ordered them. I'm pretty sure I'll love them because the reunion I've had with my Sennheisers has pushed my fiancee who just moved in with me aside for the last 3 days haha! I'll let you know how I feel about them when I get the Marbled monstrosities soon enough.

 

[TehDoge]

Not stupid; a sound investment, look forward to your impressions.

 

[David Howland]

Initial Impressions because Amazon got them to me yesterday,
 
 
 
So this half is what I wanted and not what I wanted in the best way possible. This is complete clarity throughout the range. The highs and mids blow my mind without being painful or offensive.Due to the headphones I've had in the past, I don't think I knew what I was getting myself into with the bass. I don't think I understood what I was asking for. I was under the impression my HD380s and DT-770s and HD555s were in the same 'neutral' vein. That was false. the DT-770s have FRIGGIN' RIDICULOUS BASS and barely any mids! The HD555s have a little extra bass, and the HD380s have no reason to exist anymore because everything is so recessed and boring I'll never touch them again. The weird thing I experience when listening to electronic or 'dirty' rock music is the bass is sound more than thump. They don't shake at all. I think Zeos from Z Reviews says it best. 'It can be kind of a shock coming from headphones with bass to something like [The HD600s]. They have bass, but it's different'. I can hear the entire range of bass without it shaking my head. The separation is also a shock. Every headphone I've owned in the past hasn't separated low end well, and slowed down when both highs and lows were in the foreground. Previous headphones couldn't successfully image something like that. These are fast enough to image anything I want to throw at them. Mids and highs are great just as said before. String instruments and vocals come across so clean. I had no idea what 'dark' or 'dirty' was until I heard these. I had no idea what 'sibilance' meant until I heard these. Shaky bass is BAD if you want to hear it surgically separated like these do.
 
There are only two real issues I have with these. I haven't found myself crying much in them because they are so... I don't want to call it flat or uninteresting... but they are balanced. Also, there is no soundstage. There are no really monumental crescendos that make you scream 'Oh holy bejebus!' like I did when I heard things on my HD555s for the first time. The same can be said about bass heavy music on my DT-770s. This is because the intention of the 600s is for you to hear the music first and worry about feeling second. I find myself overwhelmed at times about how bass sounds 'different' and changes how the song sounds overall, but I'm not moved emotionally. This is because the earcups don't move much or put much pressure on your head with the sound they create. The soundstage is non-existant. Imaging is perfect, but nothing happens outside the headphones.
 
- Pros -
 +A worthwhile step up in quality from headphones $100-$150.
 +Sound is never offensive. Bass is there without the distorted rumble, Treble is there without feeling like your eardrums are being stabbed with tiny knives.
 +Very Comfortable. listened for 8 hours with little adjustment.
 +My new definition of 'Clean Audio'
 
- Cons -
 +Subtracts some 'emotion' from the music
 +Everything happens within the cups of the headphones. There is little to no soundstage.

 

[TehDoge]

That's the trade-off unfortunately, like I said "The sound stage is smaller but with better separation"; although I realize it might have looked like I was talking about the mod. "not what I wanted in the best way possible" the X2 might have given you what you wanted then… bass boost and a bigger stage, maybe not what you needed?

Went back to my 600 yesterday to compare them with the LCD-2, still amazed at how good they are, became painfully aware of how small the sound stage is, not that it's exactly expansive on the Audezes. Not sure what's causing that lack of emotion in your experience, might be 'fixed' if you moved to the HiFiMan 400s, I haven't heard that particular one myself but I suspect your experience might be why it sits favorably with Tyll.

 

[David Howland]

I didn't mean I didn't like them. I'm going to compliment these with HiFiman or Fostex later on down the road. And I think I'm at a point where maybe upgrading won't give me the returns like when I got my HD555s only having $20 earbuds previously. That was a huge jump, and most of the headphones I've had previously have been good headphones. So while these haven't necessarily been what I had expected they are still amazing and I'm having problems getting out of the house because these have been glued to my head since they arrived. For example, I told myself I'd listen to a few songs before eating breakfast and leaving to run a few errands.It's 3 hours later and I've done nothing haha!  In no way am I disappointed in my decision to get these.
 
I'd say this is the first time I've 'heard' bass. It's very accurate and fast and I can appreciate this sound just as much if not more than my head shaking. The bass also seems to be opening up a bit and shaking a bit more than it did when I first put them on. I didn't give them any time to break in, but I'm not sure I believe in that. I could just be getting used to how it sounds. I know that is a big argument in the audiophile community.
 
I've heard from others a tube amp compliments these well as I will still have the resolution with a touch of grit, so that may be a nice sidegrade to my Magni/ Modi is an ~$250 Tube Amp/ DAC like a Darkvoice. I'm also considering Modi/ Magni 2 Uber so I can hand down the originals to my Fiancee. The Magni 2 Uber delivers a little more juice at 300Ohms but I don't know if that means it will be better at moving the headphones. I might also consider a ~$500 Solid State setup like the Panda Stack (without the $150 power supply). I'm not sure I'm ready for that investment, though. Any thoughts?
 
Thank you so much for your advice. I also posted on reddit and Anandtech and you were the most responsive and convincing. I did not intend to make you feel bad with my little mini review, I don't have any regrets after a few days with these, except for maybe putting off my responsibilities.Hopefully I can pry myself away and start my work week tomorrow, hah!

 

[TehDoge]

It's not that tubes compliment the HD600 so much as it is that OTL tube amps only really work with high impedance cans like the Sennheiser 6/800s and some Beyerdynamics.
I had a little Dot Mk III, I liked it, but I sold it on pretty quickly because I didn't think the difference was worth it.
 
But I do think the ability to roll is worth it for the hobbyist; The Bottlehead Crack is also really nice methinks with it's DIY aspect. If you like Schiit the Valhalla is another option, which also has a really low output impedance for an OTL amp and may be more versatile.

I'm personally weary of spending big money on amps, especially with high or flat impedance cans, why are you after the Uber? Do you specifically have a use case for SPDIF inputs and pre-outs right now? If not, maybe rather hold out for a Jotunheim or a Bifrost based stack.

 

[mixolyd]

Initial Impressions because Amazon got them to me yesterday,

Having recently made the same leap from 555 to hd600 I was able to predict the majority of what you wrote there. The HD600's really are amazing and get more amazing over time as your brain adjusts to the subtlety and depth of information on offer (I'm using Modi Multibit > O2) but they aren't isn't half as much fun as the HD555. I know exactly what you mean about crying and would add headbanging and "getting high" to the list. These phenomena were par for the course with the HD555 despite its muddled bass and lower midrange and super-veiled highs, while the HD600 offers a clear, subtle, graceful image of the music and cannot do this.

The only time I've felt really moved by the HD600's has been while listening to one or two favourite live tracks and really concentrating to put myself right there at the mic stand across from the singer. Getting a physiological response using these cans takes a deliberate effort rather than being automatic as with the HD555's. I wonder how much of this is down to the missing sub-bass: they get called a neutral 'phone but I'm not convinced that the perfect neutral can would be missing so much sub-bass.

Part of the difference between those like us who are impressed but unmoved by the HD600 may be listening level. I listen just past the end of channel imbalance on the O2 (bitstream so software vol is maxed). Moving the volume up to twice that really brings the bass frequencies out to play and showcases the cans' ability to remain perfectly poised and agile at higher volumes. This can get pretty damn exciting but I'm not comfortable with listening at those volumes as a matter of course cos I like my hearing the way it is. Maybe it is safe to listen a bit louder with the Senns as they lack treble peaks, I don't know.

As for alternatives it is the HiFiMan 400s/i and Fidelio X2 that keep coming up. I'm on the lookout for some used HD650's in the hope that they will be more dramatic and may try the X2's also. HIFiMan have such a terrible rep for build quality that I'm afraid to go there, weight also being an issue.

The thing is - if forums are to be believed - there's nothing else that can touch the 6x0 series for technical ability and detail without spending twice as much, so a compromise may be necessary.

 

[David Howland]

It's not that tubes compliment the HD600 so much as it is that OTL tube amps only really work with high impedance cans like the Sennheiser 6/800s and some Beyerdynamics.
I had a little Dot Mk III, I liked it, but I sold it on pretty quickly because I didn't think the difference was worth it.

 
But I do think the ability to roll is worth it for the hobbyist; The Bottlehead Crack is also really nice methinks with it's DIY aspect. If you like Schiit the Valhalla is another option, which also has a really low output impedance for an OTL amp and may be more versatile.


I'm personally weary of spending big money on amps, especially with high or flat impedance cans, why are you after the Uber? Do you specifically have a use case for SPDIF inputs and pre-outs right now? If not, maybe rather hold out for a Jotunheim or a Bifrost based stack.

.

I was thinking about the Jotenheim. It would replace my current stack and be an improvement from what I've heard, but I've hoping the Uber would give me the pre-outs and a little boost in output power at 300 Ohms. I think I'm more likely to get tubes first though, because my Fiancee doesn't seem to want the old setup I've got. The little dot is apparently nice for a hybrid.

 

[TehDoge]

You must be thinking of the Mk I, the Mk III is not a hybrid, it's a fully-tube OTL amp, most of them have-pre outs so that's two birds, one stone.

Let us know what you go for. You can always tell a proper tube amp because it's got 2 sets and has more output power into 300Ω (800mW on the Valhalla!)