Need help on tube rolling
May 2, 2005 at 3:08 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 21

PsychoZX

Headphoneus Supremus
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I want to purchase some new tubes for my amp. I don't really know much about tubes and have no idea where to start looking or what tubes to get. I know the amp uses 1 6z4 tube, 2 12ax7 tubes, and 2 12au7 tubes. Any advice or help you guys could give some advice it would be greatly appreciated.
 
May 2, 2005 at 10:47 PM Post #2 of 21
Hi, well, you are starting on a fun, but somewhat time consuming and potentially expensive journey.

At the end of the day, tubes can make a difference, but those differences will be somewhat subtle; those subtleties will be more magnified if you have very good equipment (the amp, headphones/speakers, source, etc.) and less pronounced otherwise.

Tubes can reveal more or less defnition and they can be warmer or cooler; some of this will be a matter of taste and some will be a matter of which qualities create synergy with your system.

When picking tubes you can go for brand new tubes, older but unused tubes (sometimes called New Old Stock or "NOS"), or used tubes. Tubes have useful lives after which they are no longer going to work well or sound good. In order to know how much life is left on a tube you need tube measurements. There are a number of tests that you can run on a tube (if you have a tube tester), but the actual numbers only means something if you know what tube tester was used and what the normal test results are for that tube on that tube tester. Good tube sellers will publish the test results, the normal "new" or "good" numbers for that test on the tube, what tube tester was used, and possibly other test results (such as whether the tube tested good for shorts, gas, etc.)

Tube testing isn't rocket science, but there are good honest human testers and good calibrated machine testers. If you buy tubes on eBay or Audiogon, generally (but not always) the seller's information in their ad and their feedback ratings are indicative of their skill and honesty.

One thing to keep in mind is that some tubes not only need to test well, but they should have comparable (within 5% or so) test results per pair as they operate as a matched pair in an amplifier circuit. (Some hifi amps have matched quads or matched octets). Also, some tubes (such as your 12AX7s) are triodes that have two sections within each tube that should be matched (the two halves should match) - so again, you need the test results to know what you are getting.

Beyond testing is a lot of opinion; some people including many with experience are of the opinion that older tubes that are still in in good shape (expecially NOS) will sound better than newer tubes. This thinking is reflected in prices as 1940s, 50s, and 60s tubes generally cost more than 1970s and 80s tubes. This thinking says that materials and designs were optimized for performance during these periods (and perhaps work ethics were better) vs more modern products that were optimized for cost-reduction. So you will get people saying that older D-getters sound better than newer O-getters, and so on and so forth; others will say the design didn't matter but the older tubes sounded better just because they were made back in the golden age of tubes.

Among tubes, Tong Sol, Telefunken, Amperex, Mullard, GE, Philips, Sylvania, Raytheon, and many others made tubes that have loyal followers. Today, relatively few tube manufacturers exist; Sovtek, Svetlana, and Electro Harmonix are popular brands. Tong Sol also has it's name on some new tubes but there is some debate about whether the brand is synonymous with the old quality.

The only way to know for sure about a tube is to test it and listen to it. Before you go down that path you can get lots of opinions about tubes on the vacuum tube forum at www.audioasylum.com and other hifi and tube web sites.

Happy tube rolling (that's the term for trying tubes.)

Yada
 
May 3, 2005 at 5:21 AM Post #3 of 21
Dear PsychoZX,

Telefunken are good choice, but they are not a cheap one.
tongue.gif


Replace table I've found:

12AX7-> ECC83 7025 ECC803S CV4004 M8137 E83CC CV492 5751
and
12AU7-> ECC82 E82CC 5814 ECC802S 5963 CV491 CV4003 6189

Hope these infos can help you.

BTW, HP-200SE is nice sounds with nice looking. Will post some reviews about your HP-200SE?

Happy with tube rolling!!!
600smile.gif
 
May 3, 2005 at 5:32 AM Post #4 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by palchiu
Will post some reviews about your HP-200SE?


I will try. Although if end up not doing one you'll still be able to hear opinions on it in a month. It will be at the South Florida Meet.
 
May 3, 2005 at 10:43 AM Post #5 of 21
actually, i found the tube forum over at aa to be a morass of unrelated posts (the majority pertaining to DIY amps) and lousy formatting. why cant every forum use a 'flat' display format like head-fi?!
confused.gif
 
May 3, 2005 at 6:30 PM Post #6 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc
actually, i found the tube forum over at aa to be a morass of unrelated posts (the majority pertaining to DIY amps)


This is not true. Are you sure you were in the right forum? They have split between Tubes forum and tubes/DIY forum. I have been hanging out at the tube forum for years and have leard a lot about tubes. Also check out the FAQ section to learn more about various topics about tubes.

Seriously, do a search on tube asylum, you will find a wealth of information.
 
May 3, 2005 at 6:38 PM Post #7 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychoZX
I want to purchase some new tubes for my amp. I don't really know much about tubes and have no idea where to start looking or what tubes to get. I know the amp uses 1 6z4 tube, 2 12ax7 tubes, and 2 12au7 tubes. Any advice or help you guys could give some advice it would be greatly appreciated.


I am not sure if you are spending your money at the right places. As others have stated, the cost of going NOS on these popular audio tubes will add up. You can easily spend $100 - $200 just to replace those tubes with some decent NOS tubes.

I have not personally heard the EMU1212m sound card. But I would spend the money on a decent source before changing the tubes. You will get more bang for the buck. Garbage in, garbage out.
 
May 4, 2005 at 2:30 AM Post #8 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by gundam91
I have not personally heard the EMU1212m sound card. But I would spend the money on a decent source before changing the tubes. You will get more bang for the buck. Garbage in, garbage out.


I thought an emu 1212m was a good source. I know its not the best but it certainly is not garbage.
 
May 4, 2005 at 3:59 AM Post #9 of 21
1212m is a good computer source, clean sounds.

HP-200se comes with the best EH tubes(gold plate pins).

Maybe try the tube rolling after 400~500 hours burn-in, then you will heard the really sound of this HP-200se.
600smile.gif
 
May 4, 2005 at 4:22 AM Post #10 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by palchiu
HP-200se comes with the best EH tubes(gold plate pins).


Wow I didn't know that. So I already have really good tubes in my amp?
 
May 4, 2005 at 4:39 AM Post #11 of 21
The best EH tubes in all HP-200SE, 2000ok told me that.

But you still can try better tubes for tube rolling, different tubes will bring you different sounds. You may try to get some used tubes for tube rolling, before you find your best combo. Too many NOS tubes will killing your wallet!
biggrin.gif


This just my personal advice for you.
tongue.gif
 
May 4, 2005 at 6:52 PM Post #12 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychoZX
I thought an emu 1212m was a good source. I know its not the best but it certainly is not garbage.


What I meant to say was that your source is the weakest link in your system. It's the limiting factor in your system. I don't think upgrading the tubes in your amp will make that much of an improvement in the overall scheme.

I forgot to ask. Are you playing CDs through the CD tray on your computer? Or are you playing MP3s from your hard-drive?

If you are playing MP3s, are they compressed files? I'm not that familiar with using computers as a source. But I know that with MP3s, you are basically compressing the original material from a CD, which means the computer deletes certain aspects of the music track so it can save the files into a smaller sizes. If your source quality has already been reduced, whatever amp you throw in will make any "improvements".

If you are playing CDs through your CD drive, you have several mechanical issues. I don't know all the details, but one thing is jitter. CDs transfer 0s and 1s. Jitter is the timing those information are transferred. Jitter is not an issue with data transfer, but it has major impacts with music.

That's why I said that you might want to consider upgrading your source next to a dedicated music CD player which are built to play music only.
 
May 4, 2005 at 7:29 PM Post #13 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc
actually, i found the tube forum over at aa to be a morass of unrelated posts (the majority pertaining to DIY amps) and lousy formatting. why cant every forum use a 'flat' display format like head-fi?!
confused.gif



I have had lots of luck finding what I need there.
600smile.gif
 
May 4, 2005 at 7:43 PM Post #14 of 21
Quote:

I have had lots of luck finding what I need there.


especially in the FAQ section.A very good resource that like the search function here can answer most questions before they are even asked
tongue.gif
 
May 5, 2005 at 3:58 AM Post #15 of 21
Quote:

Originally Posted by gundam91
I forgot to ask. Are you playing CDs through the CD tray on your computer? Or are you playing MP3s from your hard-drive?


I play lossless audio tracks ripped from cds with eac.
 

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