[Koukol]

Hello,
 
I just realized today that I'm not getting the full SACD sound from the Analog outputs of my Sony BDP-S580 Player.
I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs.
 
So, is there an affordable DAC that I can connect that will allow the full sound from SACD/24 bit USB files to input into my HP Amp?
I'm hoping to keep it under $200.00 (the less the better)
I'm looking for the type of product that punches above it's weight class (so to speak )

 

[KG Jag]

Have you checked what's in the Equipment Forums?  Among other sub-sections there is one devoted to Portable Source Gear.

 

[Koukol]

  Have you checked what's in the Equipment Forums?  Among other sub-sections there is one devoted to Portable Source Gear.

Yes I have but I believe I can't ask questions there.
I'm wondering which one will keep the Hi Rez Hi Rez.
I'll have to look again and see if I can find that info.

 

[Shaffer]

Hello,

I just realized today that I'm not getting the full SACD sound from the Analog outputs of my Sony BDP-S580 Player.
I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs.

So, is there an affordable DAC that I can connect that will allow the full sound from SACD/24 bit USB files to input into my HP Amp?
I'm hoping to keep it under $200.00 (the less the better)
I'm looking for the type of product that punches above it's weight class (so to speak )

Your post intrigued me, because AFAIK there is no SACD output other than HDMI. The Sony should be reading the SACD layer and say so on its display. Is that not happening?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Hello,
 
I just realized today that I'm not getting the full SACD sound from the Analog outputs of my Sony BDP-S580 Player.
I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs.
 
So, is there an affordable DAC that I can connect that will allow the full sound from SACD/24 bit USB files to input into my HP Amp?
I'm hoping to keep it under $200.00 (the less the better)
I'm looking for the type of product that punches above it's weight class (so to speak )

 

SACD and "high rez" aren't exactly the same thing, if you're referring to "high resolution PCM." Regular PCM is 16bit/44.1khz (DACs can be 1bit, 14bit, 16bit, 18bit, and oversampling can go as high as 8x44.1khz), DVD-A is 24bit/48khz, and then high res audio is 24bit or 32bit with sampling rates of 88khz, 96khz, 196khz.

SACD and its all-digital file, DSD, are 1-bit/2.8224Mhz . It requires a totally different kind of DAC chip, which is the reason why Schiit made the Loki separate from the Modi and all other DACs.

 

I'm not sure about the parts in that BluRay player, or what you actually mean when you say it "I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs," but a lot of universal players during the DVD era say they do SACDs but all they have - as advertised on the box and is what you will find inside the player when you open the chassis - is a "BurrBrown 24bit/96khz" DAC. That's a PCM DAC, not a DSD DAC. We later learned that what these cheaper universal players actually do was downsample the DSD file to PCM and then pass it through the PCM DAC.

 

 

Your post intrigued me, because AFAIK there is no SACD output other than HDMI. The Sony should be reading the SACD layer and say so on its display. Is that not happening?

 

That's an easy way to tell but unfortunately not the most reliable - a bunch of universal DVD-Ps in the past decade always said "SACD" on the screen, but most of them (the ones people can realistically afford anyway) never had a 1bit/2.8224Mhz DSD DAC in them (at the time all the Pioneers had a "BurrBrown 24/96" DAC; Philips also used them; Sony didn't advertise what brand they were using). I wouldn't really expect Sony to start changing that now, especially on a slim-line non-ES player.

 

 

[Shaffer]

That's an easy way to tell but unfortunately not the most reliable - a bunch of universal DVD-Ps in the past decade always said "SACD" on the screen, but most of them (the ones people can realistically afford anyway) never had a 1bit/2.8224Mhz DSD DAC in them (at the time all the Pioneers had a "BurrBrown 24/96" DAC; Philips also used them; Sony didn't advertise what brand they were using). I wouldn't really expect Sony to start changing that now, especially on a slim-line non-ES player.

I understand what you're saying, but this is a new-ish BD machine. Different animal.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I understand what you're saying, but this is a new-ish BD machine. Different animal.

 
The only way to be sure is check the innards, but I can't even find detailed photos through Google. Until I get at least a shot of a real DSD DAC in there I'm going to assume it's not a different animal at that price range - adjusted for inflation, that's around the same prices as the faux-SACD "universal" players from the last decade. Also even DAPs now still work the same way as those players.

 

[Koukol]

 

  Hello,
 
I just realized today that I'm not getting the full SACD sound from the Analog outputs of my Sony BDP-S580 Player.
I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs.
 
So, is there an affordable DAC that I can connect that will allow the full sound from SACD/24 bit USB files to input into my HP Amp?
I'm hoping to keep it under $200.00 (the less the better)
I'm looking for the type of product that punches above it's weight class (so to speak )

 

SACD and "high rez" aren't exactly the same thing, if you're referring to "high resolution PCM." Regular PCM is 16bit/44.1khz (DACs can be 1bit, 14bit, 16bit, 18bit, and oversampling can go as high as 8x44.1khz), DVD-A is 24bit/48khz, and then high res audio is 24bit or 32bit with sampling rates of 88khz, 96khz, 196khz.

SACD and its all-digital file, DSD, are 1-bit/2.8224Mhz . It requires a totally different kind of DAC chip, which is the reason why Schiit made the Loki separate from the Modi and all other DACs.

 

I'm not sure about the parts in that BluRay player, or what you actually mean when you say it "I guess it only puts out the Hi Rez through the digital outs," but a lot of universal players during the DVD era say they do SACDs but all they have - as advertised on the box and is what you will find inside the player when you open the chassis - is a "BurrBrown 24bit/96khz" DAC. That's a PCM DAC, not a DSD DAC. We later learned that what these cheaper universal players actually do was downsample the DSD file to PCM and then pass it through the PCM DAC.

 

 

Your post intrigued me, because AFAIK there is no SACD output other than HDMI. The Sony should be reading the SACD layer and say so on its display. Is that not happening?

 

That's an easy way to tell but unfortunately not the most reliable - a bunch of universal DVD-Ps in the past decade always said "SACD" on the screen, but most of them (the ones people can realistically afford anyway) never had a 1bit/2.8224Mhz DSD DAC in them (at the time all the Pioneers had a "BurrBrown 24/96" DAC; Philips also used them; Sony didn't advertise what brand they were using). I wouldn't really expect Sony to start changing that now, especially on a slim-line non-ES player.

 

As you can tell with my question I'm pretty clueless on the subject of SACDS
 
Right now my bedroom setup is a Marantz CD Player into a Little Dot MKIII Tube Amp.
Once I got the HD650's last week It made me think about the entire setup.
I have two unused SACD/BD Players...the Sony I mentioned and an older Oppo.(I'd have to search for the model # but it was their top of the line model about 6 years ago)
Anyways, I connected the Oppos Analog stereo outs to my LDIII and found the sound a lot smoother and less harsh
But for Rock I thought it was a little too smooth.
It was though the dynamics were reduced.
 
Then I tried the Sony and it was the perfect balance between the Marantz and the Oppo.
 
So, since I own a FEW SACDS and some 24bit files on my PC I've been asking around about my setup.
I was told over at Audioholics that I'm NOT getting the full sound of an SACD out of the Son'y stereo analog outs.
Then the next day I was told I WAS by another guy.
 
So now i'm even more confused.
I'm wondering how do I get the full resolution of CD's, SACDs and hopefully 24 bit files on a USB stick into my HD650's HPs?
(Only the Sony has a USB port)

 

[Koukol]

BTW~Thanks for the input, guys!

 

[Shaffer]

Read this thread. It should clear up some of the issues. Your Sony is involved:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1357189477&read&keyw&zzsacd+player

I'm wondering how do I get the full resolution of CD's, SACDs and hopefully 24 bit files on a USB stick into my HD650's HPs?
(Only the Sony has a USB port)

Easy answer, spend $1200 on an Oppo105. It'll do all that and more. It's also the best sounding machine I've heard to date regardless of cost.

Edit: text

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Right now my bedroom setup is a Marantz CD Player into a Little Dot MKIII Tube Amp.
Once I got the HD650's last week It made me think about the entire setup.
I have two unused SACD/BD Players...the Sony I mentioned and an older Oppo.(I'd have to search for the model # but it was their top of the line model about 6 years ago)
Anyways, I connected the Oppos Analog stereo outs to my LDIII and found the sound a lot smoother and less harsh
But for Rock I thought it was a little too smooth.
It was though the dynamics were reduced.
 
Then I tried the Sony and it was the perfect balance between the Marantz and the Oppo.

 

That likely had more to do with the output stage design, or in some cases, it might be the digital filter design too. I'd say use whatever sounds best to you, if at least for now, until you get into really hearing what real DSD or high res hardware can do with what they were made for, but for the most part the recording and analog output stages have the most effect. 

 

As for preferring the more unassuming equipment, I tried my Meier Cantate.2 and HD600 with a bunch of CDPs, and I preferred its USB input (which reduces the voltage swing of the amp since the power supply needs to be shared with its DAC section, and also it uses a technically inferior integrated DAC-USB receiver chip from BB) over all but the Arcam CD72. Most notable of them, the 350C had a dynamic sound but I can hear the bass drum in front of the vocals, and then the Planet made Norah Jones sound like she had a cold (I even brought a spare set of earpads to isolate short term wear/compression from use). The CD72 sounded a lot like the USB DAC on the Cantate, with a wider soundstage, more "solid" (deeper,  louder, extended decay that naturally fades out) bass hits and more sparkle in the highs (similar to the improvements in bass), but I wasn't blowing that kind of money for that much and jockeying CDs as opposed to the smartphone I was using to feed USB audio into the Cantate.2.

 

 
So, since I own a FEW SACDS and some 24bit files on my PC I've been asking around about my setup.
I was told over at Audioholics that I'm NOT getting the full sound of an SACD out of the Son'y stereo analog outs.
Then the next day I was told I WAS by another guy.

 
They were probably talking about the same thing I posted about mainstream devices (save maybe for the entry-level SACDPs, like the Sony SCD-CE595) not having a real DSD-specific DAC; but the thing is, maybe it does have a real DSD DAC. You won't get a straight answer contacting Sony, so perhaps ask those guys at Audioholics if they actually have such a BluRay player on them and if any of them have taken a peek inside. The reality is though that in the last decade "universal" players were cheating on SACD/DSD decoding.
 

 
So now i'm even more confused.
I'm wondering how do I get the full resolution of CD's, SACDs and hopefully 24 bit files on a USB stick into my HD650's HPs?
(Only the Sony has a USB port)

 

Short answer: probably not in the same device, given the problems of integrating two different DAC chips. When some players use multiple DAC chips, they use the same DAC chips, usually one for each channel, just to separate the left and right signal paths from the DAC onwards, as opposed to just the analog section after one DAC (even this is debatable given the chisp themselves have very high channel separation). SACDs can read regular CDs, but I'm not sure if they can decode anything that isn't 16/44.1 CD and SACD (in the same manner that some high-res files are 24bit/88khz, and not many DACs do 88khz sampling).

 

Apart from that, I found the specs, and it takes DTS and WAV through USB but it doesn't state what resolution of WAV. If it takes DTS though then it might actually be compatible with high-res PCM, then it's possible that Sony did design that BluRay player to decode DSD too (if at least from a disc), considering that a lot of other manufacturers have reduced specs on the (front) USB compatibility. Not sure about the latest model, but one reason why I didn't get the Marantz CD600x and the NAD C545 was because they don't take lossless (I used FLAC, but they didn't even take ALAC; and I only needed 16/44.1, not high res) through the front USB. The Cambridge 75xC and 85xC are too steep for me and I think the former only used SPDIF in the rear for lossless audio; and then the latter used only USB-B, so that means I had to use a host device, like a computer (that would be like buying a bulky DAC with a CD transport and still use a computer, as opposed to a thumb drive). Still, the only way to be sure really is to be certain if it does have a DSD DAC or not, if at least by testimony from someone who has taken his apart...or you can takes yours apart, but in one photo I found it seems like there's some kind of obstruction over a section of the circuit board (looks like a heatsink for the processor), and unless you know what you're doing and that is out of warranty, I wouldn't recommend touching it. Looking around at the chips around it wouldn't hurt though, at least it can confirm that it does have one if it does.

 

In any case the best way to get a good high-res PCM and true DSD decoding, and for not a lot of money, is to use a host device like a computer (but of course some smartphones have worked as USB audio servers, so this might work) and use a good PCM DAC for the bit depth and sampling frequency you need, then use the Schiit Loki along with it. It's designed to be integrated with another DAC to the same amp/preamp using its bypass analog input, since many good headphone amps (like Schiit's own stuff) have only one intput, but you have to manually switch the sound device on the PC. Alternately, you can use a netbook with the Loki, then the preferred CDP with USB/music server+DAC of your choice into its bypass analog input. The SACDs you can always just rip to your computer with the right program - not sure what they use now but I got out of SACD when my stupid SCD-CE595 stopped reading SACDs, but was reading CDs just fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Koukol]

Read this thread. It should clear up some of the issues. Your Sony is involved:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1357189477&read&keyw&zzsacd+player

I'm wondering how do I get the full resolution of CD's, SACDs and hopefully 24 bit files on a USB stick into my HD650's HPs?
(Only the Sony has a USB port)

Easy answer, spend $1200 on an Oppo105. It'll do all that and more. It's also the best sounding machine I've heard to date regardless of cost.

Edit: text

I already have the Oppo 95 in my TV room setup...can't afford another
 
Thanks for the link.

 

[KG Jag]

A used 83 SE isn't a bad option for about $600 to $700--or if you shop and have patience even less.

 

[Koukol]

 

 
Right now my bedroom setup is a Marantz CD Player into a Little Dot MKIII Tube Amp.
Once I got the HD650's last week It made me think about the entire setup.
I have two unused SACD/BD Players...the Sony I mentioned and an older Oppo.(I'd have to search for the model # but it was their top of the line model about 6 years ago)
Anyways, I connected the Oppos Analog stereo outs to my LDIII and found the sound a lot smoother and less harsh
But for Rock I thought it was a little too smooth.
It was though the dynamics were reduced.
 
Then I tried the Sony and it was the perfect balance between the Marantz and the Oppo.

 

That likely had more to do with the output stage design, or in some cases, it might be the digital filter design too. I'd say use whatever sounds best to you, if at least for now, until you get into really hearing what real DSD or high res hardware can do with what they were made for, but for the most part the recording and analog output stages have the most effect. 

 

As for preferring the more unassuming equipment, I tried my Meier Cantate.2 and HD600 with a bunch of CDPs, and I preferred its USB input (which reduces the voltage swing of the amp since the power supply needs to be shared with its DAC section, and also it uses a technically inferior integrated DAC-USB receiver chip from BB) over all but the Arcam CD72. Most notable of them, the 350C had a dynamic sound but I can hear the bass drum in front of the vocals, and then the Planet made Norah Jones sound like she had a cold (I even brought a spare set of earpads to isolate short term wear/compression from use). The CD72 sounded a lot like the USB DAC on the Cantate, with a wider soundstage, more "solid" (deeper,  louder, extended decay that naturally fades out) bass hits and more sparkle in the highs (similar to the improvements in bass), but I wasn't blowing that kind of money for that much and jockeying CDs as opposed to the smartphone I was using to feed USB audio into the Cantate.2.

 

 
So, since I own a FEW SACDS and some 24bit files on my PC I've been asking around about my setup.
I was told over at Audioholics that I'm NOT getting the full sound of an SACD out of the Son'y stereo analog outs.
Then the next day I was told I WAS by another guy.

 
They were probably talking about the same thing I posted about mainstream devices (save maybe for the entry-level SACDPs, like the Sony SCD-CE595) not having a real DSD-specific DAC; but the thing is, maybe it does have a real DSD DAC. You won't get a straight answer contacting Sony, so perhaps ask those guys at Audioholics if they actually have such a BluRay player on them and if any of them have taken a peek inside. The reality is though that in the last decade "universal" players were cheating on SACD/DSD decoding.
 

 
So now i'm even more confused.
I'm wondering how do I get the full resolution of CD's, SACDs and hopefully 24 bit files on a USB stick into my HD650's HPs?
(Only the Sony has a USB port)

 

Short answer: probably not in the same device, given the problems of integrating two different DAC chips. When some players use multiple DAC chips, they use the same DAC chips, usually one for each channel, just to separate the left and right signal paths from the DAC onwards, as opposed to just the analog section after one DAC (even this is debatable given the chisp themselves have very high channel separation). SACDs can read regular CDs, but I'm not sure if they can decode anything that isn't 16/44.1 CD and SACD (in the same manner that some high-res files are 24bit/88khz, and not many DACs do 88khz sampling).

 

Apart from that, I found the specs, and it takes DTS and WAV through USB but it doesn't state what resolution of WAV. If it takes DTS though then it might actually be compatible with high-res PCM, then it's possible that Sony did design that BluRay player to decode DSD too (if at least from a disc), considering that a lot of other manufacturers have reduced specs on the (front) USB compatibility. Not sure about the latest model, but one reason why I didn't get the Marantz CD600x and the NAD C545 was because they don't take lossless (I used FLAC, but they didn't even take ALAC; and I only needed 16/44.1, not high res) through the front USB. The Cambridge 75xC and 85xC are too steep for me and I think the former only used SPDIF in the rear for lossless audio; and then the latter used only USB-B, so that means I had to use a host device, like a computer (that would be like buying a bulky DAC with a CD transport and still use a computer, as opposed to a thumb drive). Still, the only way to be sure really is to be certain if it does have a DSD DAC or not, if at least by testimony from someone who has taken his apart...or you can takes yours apart, but in one photo I found it seems like there's some kind of obstruction over a section of the circuit board (looks like a heatsink for the processor), and unless you know what you're doing and that is out of warranty, I wouldn't recommend touching it. Looking around at the chips around it wouldn't hurt though, at least it can confirm that it does have one if it does.

 

In any case the best way to get a good high-res PCM and true DSD decoding, and for not a lot of money, is to use a host device like a computer (but of course some smartphones have worked as USB audio servers, so this might work) and use a good PCM DAC for the bit depth and sampling frequency you need, then use the Schiit Loki along with it. It's designed to be integrated with another DAC to the same amp/preamp using its bypass analog input, since many good headphone amps (like Schiit's own stuff) have only one intput, but you have to manually switch the sound device on the PC. Alternately, you can use a netbook with the Loki, then the preferred CDP with USB/music server+DAC of your choice into its bypass analog input. The SACDs you can always just rip to your computer with the right program - not sure what they use now but I got out of SACD when my stupid SCD-CE595 stopped reading SACDs, but was reading CDs just fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whew, that's quite a lot to digest
and to be honest...confusing.
 
I think what confuses me is I'm equating Audio with Video.
With video the digital signal remains pure with an HDMi cable so we get full 1080p on our TVs
So it has me thinking maybe using the digital outputs on the Sony or Oppo would do the same if I traded my LDIII Amp for one with a digital input.
 
BTW~I'd love to rip my few SACDS to my PC but I can't figure out how.

 

[Shaffer]

Whew, that's quite a lot to digest
and to be honest...confusing.

I think what confuses me is I'm equating Audio with Video.
With video the digital signal remains pure with an HDMi cable so we get full 1080p on our TVs
So it has me thinking maybe using the digital outputs on the Sony or Oppo would do the same if I traded my LDIII Amp for one with a digital input.

BTW~I'd love to rip my few SACDS to my PC but I can't figure out how.

If you use the digital outs, you're simply sending the bits to another DAC. Meaning, you won't be using the Oppo's processing function, which is very, very good. I have a LDIII, as well, with upgraded tubes. You can see what I use in my profile; it's the least pedigreed, least expensive amp I own. Yet, it's my preferred amp for HD600 and the only amp I ever use with K550. I guess I'm trying to say that you have some excellent gear that's rarely matched in this market segment, which tends to cater to the no-money, I-want-it-as-cheap-as-possible crowd. No offence meant to anyone; I was a student/young professional, too, and fully realize what it's like to live on a limited/fixed endowment.