Need advice: on speakers (computer or bookshelf?)

[MacDEF]

TheeeChosenOne, do you have stock in Denon or something?

You keep hammering away at that Denon unit over and over, but I don't think you're listening to PianoBlack.

I don't mean to sound irritated, but it bugs me when people get so dogmatic about audio that they forget to tailor their recommendations to what the user actually wants/needs. I couldn't really care less what PianoBlack gets. If she doesn't like my suggestions, or doesn't take advantage of them, that's fine with me, provided she gets something appropriate for her that she's happy with in the long run. I have no vested interest in her getting the L40. The problem is that she has said over and over that she wants/needs something smaller, and that this system will be moved around a lot. By continually pushing big separates, you're pushing her in a direction that doesn't appear to be right for her. Even worse, because it doesn't look like she's going to be using this system for a big home theater system, you're advocating that she get a system that is more expensive but will probably provide inferior sound for two-channel listening. If you're really convinced she should get separates, then at least advocate for a good inexpensive two-channel amp (Arcam, NAD, etc.) that will sound better than that Denon receiver for two-channel listening.


PianoBlack, one other thing you might consider is the Denon DM-30

In the hierarchy of "minisystems" it's probably the best one until you get to the L40. The great thing about it is that it's really small, but sounds very good and includes a set of great Mission speakers. Sorry to add to the confusion. The L40 sounds significantly better, but you can get the DM-30 for around $300 complete on sale, so maybe something like this would be good for school... later when you have a house or big apartment (and more money), you could buy a better "main" system, and still keep the DM-30 (or L40) around for your bedroom or kitchen.


P.S. TheeeChosenOne, I want to address a couple of your points, which I feel are very common misconceptions in audio.

The issue of "what if an all in one breaks" is for the most part not a great argument. It's one of the old myths used by people to justify separates, when separates are not *always* the best way to go. It doesn't cost any more to get the CDP in an all-in-one fixed than it does to get a standalone CDP fixed (and whether your CDP in the all in one breaks, or a separate component CD player, the fact is that you can't listen to CDs until it's fixed

). But even more important, all-in-one units are simply better for some people. I personally have separates, and have had them since I was 14 years old (a long time ago) when I mowed lawns and did odd jobs for two years and bought an integrated amp, a separate tuner, and a separate tape deck. But I also own an L40 because in the place where I use it, small and compact is better than a bunch of bulky components. I've suggested to a few friends who needed small systems that they buy a Denon DM-30, because it's even smaller than the L40 and for the money can't be beat. The "separates are always better" argument is dogmatic and not applicable for all people at all times.

As for your listing of various "reviews" of the L40 vs. the Denon, you're comparing products in *completely* different categories. You can't compare a 3/5 rating for a two-channel audiophile-level minisystem with a 5/5 rating for a Denon 6-channel digital home theater receiver. They do different things, and are intended for different purposes. It's like comparing the crash tests results for a Hyundai Accent with a Ford Explorer: the Hyundai gets 5/5, while the Ford gets 3.5/5. But those ratings are class-specific--the Ford is MUCH safer than the Hyundai. In fact, I guarantee that for two-channel audio, the L40 will sound better than the Denon. In addition, your review references have been heavily biased towards the product you want PianoBlack to buy --the Denon has received reviews with less than stellar ratings, while the L40 has received many more high ratings than not. My point here is that both are very good products, but products made for different applications. Given PianoBlack's stated preferences (smaller, mobile, two-channel), I just don't think a bulky home theater receiver, which would then require another component for CD playback, is the best way to go.

Best,
Mac

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

============================================
Macdef wrote:

"do you have stock in Denon or something?......I don't mean to sound irritated, but it bugs me when people get so dogmatic....I couldn't really care less what PianoBlack gets. If she doesn't like my suggestions, or doesn't take advantage of them, that's fine with me"........
=============================================

Macdef,

"Dogmatic"? (That's a big word. I don't think you know what it means as it doesn't apply here.) "Irritated"? (Yes you do sound irritated)? "I don't care what she gets"? (Based on your words, It seems you VERY much care what she gets.) "Bugs me"? (Yes you are bugged. I agree.)

Dude! Take 2 steps back, relax, breathe. Ok? It's JUST ELECTRONICS, NOT you're first born! LOL!

Don't let banal audio geek emotions turn a healthy interchange/discussion into an immature flame war. Ok man/boy? You act like if you got turned down for a date, man.

Breathe...remember. LOL!

Now, as I mentioned before, let Pianoblack do her RESEARCH. She's ENCOURAGED to read up on mags, find other equipment, and ask OTHER people's opinions on other big audio boards on the web (that's the the reason for my those links earlier). That doesn't sound very "dogmatic", now duz it?

Professional magazine reviews is a good first start to create a shortlist (since they do have knowledgeable profeesional who have the TIME & RESOURCES to do informed comparative decisions), then following-up on boards, then personal auditioning, then purchasing.
-------------------
CASE IN POINT:
Yes, the L40 has been reviewed by users at audioreview.com to skip. Even a professional review confirms it (http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/r.../nad_l-40.html) Only thru RESEARCH can you get a GRIP on the product:

"And on to the CD player. We put it through the standard tests, starting with the Verany calibrated dropout CD. In the single errors, it managed through track 34 (2mm), ticking on 35, and in the narrow gauge dropouts it handled 41 (1.5mm), while in the double dropouts it played through 48 (2 x 1.5mm), ticking and jumping ahead on 49 and 50.............The Canadian-made CD CHECK disc was played cleanly only on Track 1, with a small amount of ticking on 2, and a lot above. Because the L 40 has no digital output we could not hook up the DED Pro digital error counter. Our random error disc caused a lot of ticks and repeated phrases right from the beginning, the player locking up completely at the 1-minute mark exactly, and then skipping forward, to lock totally at 2:10.........And, finally, the see-through CD we use to test for manufacturing defect sensitivity was not well played, either, with loud ticking and distortion on tracks 1, 2, and 3, this gradually decreasing by tracks to a small amount on 4. These results suggest a player that may be sensitive to CDs with pinholes, or with insufficient aluminizing, and will have trouble with other dropouts larger than 2mm. However, most Red Book standard CDs SHOULD play perfectly (the dropout limit is a low .2mm)."
-------------------------


By the way, Macdef, I've always acknowledged the decent equipment you mentioned. So what if Denon may be better or if some other piece of silicon beats them? Ok? So relax and STOP taking it so personal.

Now please apologize to everyone like a good little boy!

That was a tease/joke by the way. LOL!

Cheers!

*******

Lets BOTH STEP BACK AND GIVE THE STAGE AND MIC TO SOMEONE ELSE.

*********

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by TheeeChosenOne "Dogmatic"? (That's a big word. I don't think you know what it means as it doesn't apply here.)

LOL, Exhibit #1 in how flame wars start on the 'net. Sorry, TheeeChosenOne, despite the numerous flames in your post, I'm not biting.

BTW, the term dogmatic applies quite well here. There is a dogma in audio about the superiority of separates over all-in-one components. For someone to keep expressing that view when it may not be appropriate is dogmatic.


Quote:

"Irritated"? (Yes you do sound irritated)?

Yes, I admit to a mild irritation when people try forcing their recommendations on others even when they aren't appropriate.


Quote:

Based on your words, It seems you VERY much care what she gets.)

You're right, I misspoke when I said "I don't care what she buys." I do care, because I want her to be happy with her purchase and to get something right for her. What I meant to say was that I don't care whether or not she buys something I recommend.


Quote:

Don't let your banal audio geek tendencies turn a healthy interchange/discussion into an immature flame war. Ok man/boy? You act like if you got turned down for a date, man. Breathe...remember. LOL!

Once again, nice attempts at flames, but I'm not interested. Please address the issues instead of insulting me.



Quote:

So what if Denon may be better or if some other piece of silicon beats them?

You missed my point completely. My point is that you seem so set on beating your Denon receiver suggestion into PianoBlack's head that you haven't taken a step back and listened to what she is looking for. That's what I took issue with -- she wants a smaller system for two-channel audio that is easily transportable. Yet you keep telling her to get a big home theater receiver that will require her to buy a separate CD player and will have tons of features she'll never use. Does it matter if a big Denon home theater receiver gets great reviews when someone is looking for a small two-channel system for a dorm room or small apartment? A smaller, less expensive two-channel system can sound better.

Additionally, while you say "let's let her do her own research," the only things you've quoted have been sites that support your recommendation. You clearly want her to buy what you want, rather than what she wants/needs. Maybe you think that your suggestion is a good one -- and it would be for some people -- but the problem is the constant posts, reiterating your suggestion over and over, every time someone else posts a suggestion contrary to yours.


Quote:

So relax and STOP taking it so personal.

Considering my calm, reasoned reply, and the flames in yours, it doesn't appear as though I'm the one taking this personally

My apologies if my "banal audio geek tendencies" make it sound that way...

For the record, there's a difference between calling someone on something you disagree with, and flaming someone for doing so. I didn't start any flame war, nor did I insult you or call you names. I'm simply looking at this from a rational point, and I didn't feel that your recommendations were appropriate. Again, if you disagree, rather than taking cheap shots, please address the issue -- Why is a big Denon home theater receiver going to be better in this situation than a smaller system with higher-quality two-channel sound?

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

*YAWN* You say potaTOE, I say potato.

P.S. You are starting to flame, I really held redeeming hopes for you.

 

[PianoBlack]

*blatantly ignores the heat from the previous posts in an attempt to attract all ire and blame*

So.

How 'bout that World Cup match? Eh?


Seriously though, I do understand where you both are coming from. I'm sure my posts don't accurately reflect what I'm looking for. On one hand, I do want a compact, transportable system. On the other hand, I briefly mentioned that I'd like any receiver/integrated amp that is affordable.

Somewhere along the way, my budget ballooned to $500.

So now I obviously need to regroup. Alright then, with a very very firm stance, I'm going for:
1) a system that costs around $350.
2) since the (many varieties of) speakers I really want to get start from $99, I'm looking for a $100-200 receiver/integrated amp.

Taking into consideration that the NAD L-40 itself costs $350 refurbished, the NAd is out of the question. Furthermore, I think I might have a good deal on used PSB Alpha Minis, so I'm not checking out the Denon DM-3 which has (questionable) reviews on its questionable build quality. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

Which segues nicely into this: I know I sound like a kindergarten teacher when I say this, but let's move on. No hard feelings ok?

And I give you free rein to gripe about how wishy-washy I am... "can she make up her MIND?" ...etc. etc. "women... *shaking head*"

 

[carlo]

pianoblack,

damn, considering your space requirements its a tough call for an integrated or receiver in that price bracket. the psb alpha mini are forgiving while offering a pleasing sound, and i don't think that going for the most revealing speakers is the best idea at this price point.

you've got two shots with amplification: hit up your local major retail chain and look at what japanese receivers they have available as open box units then cross reference. i suggest this since lower priced electronics are generally more likely to have reliability problems, and a local dealer will provide better support in that situation, plus you have the 30 day return policy.

option #2 (they way i would go) is vintage. i'm not kidding, a lot of goodwills and salvation armys in socal have vintage receivers for well under $50, and in some cases you'll find a 70s era yammy, phillips, harman kardon, or (if you're lucky) marantz that will blow your mind. more than likely won't be able to listen to them before purchase and should it be defective you'll only get store credit (but vintage clothes are cool so you can just go shopping if they don't have another integrated/receiver). the upside is that when you do upgrade or move, you can sell it for cheap, use it as a tuner or phono stage, or just dump it. sonically a good, clean vintage amp (assuming no cap leakage or anything) will be on par or exceed a current production low cost unit.

of course, all of the above suggestions will be tough considering your transportation situation and they all have a large footprint, but the bonus of auditioning and saving on shipping (an integrated amp or receiver will have expensive costs) hopefully will offset it. you already realise that the trade off is between space and sound quality, and since it sounds like you'll have a severely comprimised enviornment i don't think you should exceed $250 total in the first place.

best of luck,
carlo.

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

Here's some threads right up you're alley:

This College Student is looking for a Cheap System:
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forum...chaura&start=0

Michaura as an Axiom Clone raved speaker for under $100?:
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forum...light=michaura

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by PianoBlack So now I obviously need to regroup. Alright then, with a very very firm stance, I'm going for: 1) a system that costs around $350. 2) since the (many varieties of) speakers I really want to get start from $99, I'm looking for a $100-200 receiver/integrated amp.

What about a CD player?

I ask because since you seem to have decided on the Alpha Minis (a good choice, IMO, for the reasons Carlos listed above and for the price), that will leave you with around $250. If that's only for an amp, you're in business. If that includes a CD player and an amp, then it gets trickier. Can you clarify this a bit?


Quote:

And I give you free rein to gripe about how wishy-washy I am... "can she make up her MIND?" ...etc. etc. "women... *shaking head*"

Actually, I never even thought of that

I chalked your indecision up to all the conflicting information you were getting that was all over the map. Don't worry about it.



Quote:

Originally posted by TheeeChosenOne P.S. You are starting to flame, I really held redeeming hopes for you.

There was not a single flame in my last post. In fact, I expressly resisted the urge to respond to your flames in kind. Childish insults have no place on this board. You're new, so maybe you don't understand how Head-Fi works. We discuss things here. This isn't one of the usual forums or message boards where the kids can come and insult each other, getting into idiotic flame wars. If you can't discuss a topic without throwing around insults, then this isn't the place for you.

 

[2 channel]

Quote:

Originally posted by TheeeChosenOne http://www.tivoliaudio.com/pM2TPE.htm The Model 2 is/was designed by the late audio genius Henry Kloss. Read up on the pro reviews. It has a FM receiver that rivals those of kilobuck systems. The sound is awesome quality and will beat the pants off any boombox, PC 2.1 system, etc. It has a DELICIOUS sound that's non-tiring. Thus, it's a no-brainer to try.

I bought a tivoli model 2 a couple of weeks ago. Not only does it sound awesome, but there is definately an un-rivaled coolness factor as It sits on my desk and others come by my office and as..."Wow, what's that? and how come it sounds so good?"
I opted for the sub as well and have absolutely no regrets.!

The only other option I would consider for your application is Klipsch promedia.

2

 

[carlo]

Pianoblack,

i just realised that you can get the little ASL wave monoblocks ($99/ea x 2) in your price range if you use the computer's level control. i've heard them drive the Sound Dynamics rts-3 (a fairly easy load, the PSBs may be even friendlier); they won't go real loud and they do smear detail, but they're small, transportable, and pretty damned cool.

best,
carlo.

 

[PianoBlack]

Carlo,

Thanks for the advice:
1) I love the idea of the ASL Wave 8s! Preliminary research is promising to say the least, and I can cut my new amp budget by $50-80. When/if I get the PSB Alpha Minis (which are exactly the right size but may need to be creatively arranged in my small room), then I'm getting the cuuuuuute mono blocks. (j/k)

Actually though, they fulfill my requirements: a) compact (so no A\V receivers unfortunately), b) affordable.

I'll be looking at more ASL amps to find an even smaller amp (possibly stereo).

2) So again, size is one of the reason I won't be picking up a used integrated amp. Those things are HUGE! I won't have a desk left if I get one of those.

Re-reading your post made me realize how you've anticipated my concerns--and yes, transportation is a big problem. Summer is a busy time for me and my car-owning friends, so the possibility that I will get up my nerve and force them all around SF or somewhere near Palo Alto for vintage amp shopping is pretty much nil. And the chances that they will agree are even slimmer.

Quote:

more than likely won't be able to listen to them before purchase and should it be defective you'll only get store credit (but vintage clothes are cool so you can just go shopping if they don't have another integrated/receiver).

that's pretty much how I shop: "oh yeah, books can definitely replace not getting the latest video card." And this is why malls are eeeviillll...



Theee,

The forum links were extremely informative: there's apparently alot I don't know about speaker systems.

Okay, I know that the Audes 105 seem the best (max quality) set for me right now--front ports, not exorbitantly expensive. If I'm not able to get the Alpha Minis for under $100, I might wait a while and save up to get these.

The Michauras are a little big for me but they're the next best deal after the Minis. Again with rear ports, placement might be difficult, especially since they're *gasp* 4" taller than the Minis.

Do you know what "pushing alot of air" mean with respect to rear ports? Does this mean that the speakers need to be further away from walls or placement matters less? I would think that they do need to be placed far because the sound generated by the air is annoying? ...please confirm.

MacDEF,

Quote:

Actually, I never even thought of that I chalked your indecision up to all the conflicting information you were getting that was all over the map. Don't worry about it.

Okay...though I am slightly more trigger-happy than the average person.

I'm not getting a CD player because I'm severely cutting costs. I already have an ART DAC and I think I do want to play some of my mp3s as well as movies or games from my computer. So the DAC is staying and the (sort-of) dedicated CD player's gone.


2 channel,

good thing you brought up the Model 2 again. In light of a severely slashed budget, these look better. Again if my Minis deal fall through, then I'm going to do the 30day trial from crutchfield as TheeeChosenOne recommended.

....so small....


And fellas, all your advice have been absolutely invaluable and are definitely appreciated.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by PianoBlack 2 channel, good thing you brought up the Model 2 again. In light of a severely slashed budget, these look better. Again if my Minis deal fall through, then I'm going to do the 30day trial from crutchfield as TheeeChosenOne recommended.

OK, given everything you said in your last post

:

1) You don't need a CDP, since you'll be using your computer for CD/MP3.
2) You really want something small and transportable
3) You'd like to get something you can audition

I'm going to agree with 2channel and suggest that you at least audition the Model Two. The Good Guys in Palo Alto, Sunnyvale and Mountain View all carry it, and have a 30-day MBG (probably easier than ordering from Crutchfield).

As I mentioned earlier, the Model Two has a warm sound, which would be good to counteract some of the harshness coming out of your computer. You get a great tuner, which you won't get going the amp/speaker route. The whole system is smaller than a pair of speakers. Finally, the Model Two has both headphone out and line out jacks, so you can use your headphones or a headphone amp.

It sounds like the M2 is at least something you should go try out for a couple weeks -- you may be quite happy with it

 

[carlo]

pianoblack,

thanks for the kind words. some issues raised by your last post:

1)didn't realise you were using the di/o, in which case you'll need a volume control between that and the asl's (should you go that route). you can either diy a simple one or have someone do it for you if you want to avoid buying a preamp. i checked out your system: if you're using the di/o into your headphone amp without overloading it (i assume your boulder cables have the attenuators) you can use the corda as a preamp. two problems will arise though - a)you'll need a second mini to rca connector b)you may be comprimising the sound.

2)"pushing a lot of air" could either be a chuffing port, which would lead to box colorations on the sound, or what you're assuming, which would mean they're placement sensitive. i didn't feel like subjecting my eyesight to harmonicdiscord's color scheme so i avoided reading either of the links theeechosenone provided.

bonus info: the wave 8s are even cuter in person, i'm considering getting a pair myself for a little 'puter system. that said, it looks like the tivoli may be the best option for you application.

should you decide to get the psb alpha minis, here's some tips to help you on placement in the future:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...ighlight=slabs

anyway, seems like you have a lot of info to digest, and i'm sure you'll get more before all is said and done. take your time with your decision.

good luck again,
carlo.

 

[TheeeChosenOne]

Quote:

Originally posted by PianoBlack Theee, Okay, I know that the Audes 105 seem the best (max quality) set for me right now--front ports, not exorbitantly expensive. If I'm not able to get the Alpha Minis for under $100, I might wait a while and save up to get these. The Michauras are a little big for me but they're the next best deal after the Minis.

Yes, those Wave 8's are a sweet tube amp. Like Carlo & others have said, they may not go as loud as you may want--especially if you're a headbanger.

The Audes line-up is a super sweet line from Estonia--the Switzerland of the Russian republic. I've heard their top-line models and was impressed with the sound & construction & for what they sell at (cheap labor in Estonia, of course). This 105 model is rated as a somewhat inefficient speaker so the Wave 8 may not drive them loud enough for your needs--that's a personal thing you need to consider.

Whereas, the Michauras are a more efficient speaker so you'll get MORE volume as well as the Axiom house sound since it's a close "clone" from the same factory. And yes, they're bigger.

The guys at Harmonic Discord who have that same setup have given it a thumbs up (Wave 8's w/ one of these bookshelfs)......If you're into this set-up, personal-message them to ask such questions (i.e. Wave 8's w/ Michauras or w/ Audes).

The Tivoli Model is a small system and easily portable. The sound is PLENTY loud enough for a dorm room, without dorm residents or the dorm RA coming to your door to step down the volume. If you have a bassy system ala Audes, you WILL have people knocking on your door all the time. Actually, that's where the headphone hookup on the Tivoli delivers--especially late at night. Plus, you get that awesome tuner.

Oh.....the things to consider!

 

[lini]

Mhmhm, all the requirements and the limited budget in mind - maybe JBL's Control Media would be viable solution. These are an active (powered) version of the Control 1G, make very good computer speakers and could also be connected to the pcdp/separate dac/whatsoever - ruggedness and easy setup would also be no problem with the Control Media. It's also got an additional connector for an active subwoofer for later upgrading - but there's no headphone jack, which is a pity.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini