[flashnolan]

It is my understanding that in a typical house you have a hot (+), neutral (-), and ground wires on any outlet. I would assume that the circuit box would be exactly the same. In my circuit box the main wire that comes into the house has a braided unshielded portion (ground) and two insulated wires with one of them having a red strip on it.

The ground goes to the ground wire for the house terminated to the water pipes on either side of the water meter (to meet codes). The two shielded wires that come in both go to a hot 60 amp circuit breaker on the same side of the breaker. The other side of the breaker feeds each circuit in the apartment.

All of the neutral wires are terminated into a single strip and then that strip connects to the same ground wires. So basically from the main wire that feeds the house it has two wires for hot (even though one has a red strip on it and one does not) and the ground shielding on the cable is basically the neutral. Does this sound correct?

 

[nickosha]

I just became an electric apprentice not even a month ago and I don't know anything about house wiring, but based on the PLC work I've done, I'd guess that the wire with the red stripe is hot and the other one is neutral, but definitely wait for an experienced electrician to confirm or correct me on that.

 

[Anonanimal]

I'm not an electrician but I am fairly familiar with house circuits. I'm going to preface this by saying the current on the two big lines will kill you. Do not even think about messing with it if you're not 100% sure what you're doing. Even then I'd wait for an electrician to look at it.

The two insulated lines you have coming in are most likely hot (striped) and neutral (not striped). In the breaker panel you typically connect the ground from either your ground rods or plumbing (preferably both, really) to the same strip as all of the neutrals. You should basically have all of the hots on one side going into the individual breakers, and on the other side you'll have all your grounds and neutrals lined up on the same bar. I hope this helps.

Anyone please feel free to add or correct because I don't want to be giving out incorrect information!

 

[flashnolan]

That is exactly what I thought. I thought the red strip was the hot, other neutral, and braided wires the ground. However, I want to make sure. I already made some wiring changes in it. Last night a truck hit a pole and they shut off the power. I used that as the perfect opportunity to service my electrical box without fear of electrical shock.

Does anyone have years of field experience that can weigh in? I have a lot of bad ground loop and power sag problems that I want to clear up. For example when my refrig. kicks on all of the lights go dim in the apartment. I have read that it is a sign of a bad ground.

 

[NightOwl]

I also am not an electrician. I did spend 6 years in the electrical supply business. I would not normally chime in, but I have great respect for electricity. I've seen the results of bad wiring and heard many horror stories.

I strongly recommend that you get a licensed electrician in to look at your service and explain it to you. The cost would be worth the peace of mind.

The two insulated wires you have coming into the house may both be hot. You may have a 3 wire service where the neutral wires are tied back into the ground (your braided wire) at the panel. Each hot is 120 volts. They are tied together for anything requiring 240 volts (stove, central air conditioner, water heater, etc.). It is common to differentiate the secondary hot with a stripe.

Most new services (at least here) are 4 wire, where you have 2 hot, a neutral and a ground wire coming into the panel since there are some potential hazards with a 3 wire service. This may be a cause of your ground loop problems. A lot depends on how your electrical company supplies your house.

Most new houses are supplied with at least 100 amp services now due to the increased demands of modern society. Your sags may be caused by your power demands. Older appliances (especially fridges and window air conditioners) are notorious for causing drops, surges and spikes as they cycle. They become much less efficient as they age and draw much more current.

 

[nickosha]

Well I said something to my dad and he said that in a house circuit there is a grounded neutral and drew me a rough diagram of how a transformer works so yeah I'm pretty sure what I said before was wrong. Just to let you know.

 

[Billyk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashnolan /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is exactly what I thought. I thought the red strip was the hot, other neutral, and braided wires the ground. However, I want to make sure. I already made some wiring changes in it. Last night a truck hit a pole and they shut off the power. I used that as the perfect opportunity to service my electrical box without fear of electrical shock. Does anyone have years of field experience that can weigh in? I have a lot of bad ground loop and power sag problems that I want to clear up. For example when my refrig. kicks on all of the lights go dim in the apartment. I have read that it is a sign of a bad ground.

Get a licensed electrical contractor. At best you can burn the place down, worst you can kill yourself.
Three wires in means Hot, Hot, and Neutral, 120v, 120v, and 0v(neutral). This is to provide 120v and 240v as someone else explained in a previous post. You stated that the wires went into a 60amp breaker, you have a 60amp load center. This may not be large enough for your use, when your fridge or AC compressors start they take a large portion of the current available for that few seconds causing the sag.
My house is over 100 and looks like a wiring museum, I had similar issues and upgraded to a 200 amp load center. Now I do not have sags or other issues. I am still replacing some of the older branch circuits as I can afford to and even have some old knob and tube stuff to replace, but I think the best thing I did was to hire the electrical contractor to install my new 200 amp service.

 

[mrarroyo]

You could also add a separate 100 amp service to handle a portion of the house. Not as elegant as a new 200 amp service for the whole house but it might be cheaper.

 

[zx10guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif You could also add a separate 100 amp service to handle a portion of the house. Not as elegant as a new 200 amp service for the whole house but it might be cheaper.

There's no way you can install a 100A subpanel off a main service panel only rated for 60A. If you go through the expense of installing an independent panel to get 100A service from your utility company, you might as well do it right and get a new main service panel installed with the proper capacity. From there you can install a 100A subpanel where/when it makes sense.

I have a 200A main service panel and only installed a 100A subpanel when I had an addition put on the house along with finishing the basement. There are many things I will DIY. I installed a whole house surge suppressor myself. But I will not add new circuits or subpanels which require extensive time in the service panel. There are times when an electrician should be called in along with complying with local building codes for permits and compliance with your home owner's insurance.

 

[mrarroyo]

zx10guy the 100 amp panel was to be an independent panel like when you do an addition to a house. Also in my post I did not in any way/form/shape recommend the poster do it him/her self, instead a license electrician w/ proper permits is the way to go. So please do not attempt to read or imply I meant things that were not there.

 

[flashnolan]

Thanks for you input guys. I was an Electrical Engineer in college for two years (before I switched). I am well aware what 60 amps or even 1 amp can do for that matter (enough to stop your heart). The only wires I changed were the ground wires so that it would be a little more a start wiring for the ground to help (if any) with the ground loop problem.

I like the 100 amp panel idea. Does it just involve a new breaker or does it have to have an entirely new panel? I live in an apartment and I doubt my landlord would spring for it. So I am hesitant to put any money in it that I can not take away with me. Has anyone tried a humbuster (or other hum eliminating device)? I have a lot of 60hz hum in my speakers. It is especially bad when I connect a video cable to my tv from a device on another outlet.

While the power was down I did notice several screws that were extremely loose. One was so loose that it had completely freed itself and was making an electrical contact by the fact that it just happened to be touching the way it was hanging. It even had a little char on it from when I am sure it arched when a sufficient load went through it causing the wire to physically move. So I am glad I opened the breaker to fix these issues.

 

[zx10guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif zx10guy the 100 amp panel was to be an independent panel like when you do an addition to a house. Also in my post I did not in any way/form/shape recommend the poster do it him/her self, instead a license electrician w/ proper permits is the way to go. So please do not attempt to read or imply I meant things that were not there.

And in no way did I say you did recommend the OP do it him/herself....hence the paragraph I used to continue with another thought.

As far as the recommendation about a 100A panel, I still stand by my stance. If you're spending the money, you might as well put in a proper panel which for a modern day system would be 200A. Unless the house/apartment is ultra small, there's no way I would recommend a 100A panel. Some larger homes are in fact starting to have 2 200A panels installed.

 

[zx10guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashnolan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for you input guys. I was an Electrical Engineer in college for two years (before I switched). I am well aware what 60 amps or even 1 amp can do for that matter (enough to stop your heart). The only wires I changed were the ground wires so that it would be a little more a start wiring for the ground to help (if any) with the ground loop problem. I like the 100 amp panel idea. Does it just involve a new breaker or does it have to have an entirely new panel? I live in an apartment and I doubt my landlord would spring for it. So I am hesitant to put any money in it that I can not take away with me. Has anyone tried a humbuster (or other hum eliminating device)? I have a lot of 60hz hum in my speakers. It is especially bad when I connect a video cable to my tv from a device on another outlet. While the power was down I did notice several screws that were extremely loose. One was so loose that it had completely freed itself and was making an electrical contact by the fact that it just happened to be touching the way it was hanging. It even had a little char on it from when I am sure it arched when a sufficient load went through it causing the wire to physically move. So I am glad I opened the breaker to fix these issues.

It has to be a new panel. As I stated in my first post here, you CANNOT wire a new 100A panel off your existing 60A service panel as a sub panel. You have to either run a new connection from the utility feed or replace the 60A panel with the 100A panel. Since we now know more about your living situation, you're pretty much stuck with what you have. As I wouldn't spend the money to upgrade the electrical system on a place I don't own.

The hum issues should be addressed and you can probably get your landlord to hire an electrician to look into it. Hum issues are typically indicative of poor grounding causing ground loops. You can maybe use the angle that having an improper ground is a potential safety hazard and your landlord may buy into it. But using filters and such would be the last resort I would use to fix this problem as it only masks the underlying issue.

 

[Billyk]

When I had my system upgraded from the 60 to the 200 they replaced everything from the electric company feed through to the meter and on to the panel. They would have done that for a hundred amp panel too so it was not all that much more to go with the 200. At any rate the wire for a 60 amp feed was not sufficient for more current so to add to what you have would not work without replacing everything like they did to mine.