[bigshot]

The primary advance in CD players has been in error correction and tracking. Warped and borderline scratched disks play better in new machines than in old ones. Plus of course the ability to play CDRs.

See ya
Steve

 

[lini]

Steve: You really see the primary advance in error correction and tracking? Hmmm... I don't think I'd second that. The error correction scheme hasn't changed since cdps were introduced, and very scratch tolerant models also exist since quite a long time (for example, the Technics players with three-beam lasers always seemed pretty good at that to me...). And when it comes to cd-r compatibility: Strangely enough, most older cdps I know didn't have a problem with that, whereas there seemed to be quite a few problematic models in the late 90s - which almost seems as if the industry was determined to tackle the copy problem that way, at least for a while...

I'd probably see the most advance in price/performance - driven by component integration, techniques like digital filtering or single-bit dacs and, of course, also high production volumes, which all helped to bring down the prices significantly.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[kentamcolin]

Aren't we getting a wee bit off topic here? Back to your Dual; what model is it? For me the fun of vinyl is in the passion for vinyl. If you really like your Dual, restoring it would be a good bet. It would be just plain fun to play records on a restored vintage table, and fun is just as much a part of vinyl as the sound.

While you're at it, check out these sweet plinths being offered by Cain & Cain for Dula TT resorations. makes me want to ditch the Scout and start combing ebay for a Dual.

http://cain-cain.com/plinth/index.html

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lini Steve: You really see the primary advance in error correction and tracking? Hmmm... I don't think I'd second that. The error correction scheme hasn't changed since cdps were introduced, and very scratch tolerant models also exist since quite a long time

My old Sony CD player used to have all kinds of problems with dirty or scuffed disks. The Diskman I had before that was even worse. My current CD/DVD player will play just about anything I throw at it, and my computer is even more tolerant. The ten year old CD player in my car flat out won't play CDRs, although it plays store bought CDs fine.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

I have never had any problems playing CDR's on the older 1st and 2nd generation machines except for a Beogram CD50. All the others I have had including the Sony D50 portable, the first one ever made, play fine.

Certainly the lasers were more powerful as they had to deal with the dubious quality control on some of the early discs. Some of these machines are certainly better at overcoming disc errors than others with my Studer A727 from the late 80's being the best in this regard I have come accross, certainly on a par with the Pioneer DVD transports inside my Mac's, Pc and DVD player.

On the subject of rebuilding the Dual. It may be worthwhile if the bearing is not trashed. Dual arn't as easily moddable as Lenco's but I see no reason why you couldn't pull one apart and stick a new arm on it. Certainly on the earlier idler ones like you have the build quality is to Lenco standards.

The later ones like the famous CS-505 are probably not worth modding though. They are as good as they are going to get and well worth seeking out if you can't afford a Rega. They were so popular for so long that they are common 2nd hand and can be picked up for 20-30UKP. Don't know about in the states though.

 

[pne]

little disappointment here, when examining the turntable closely, appears the whole thing is built on a plastic tray, which is suspended onto the wood frame. The plastic tray looks like a molded tub and quite cheap. I'm not sure if its worth the effort to rebuild this.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pne little disappointment here, when examining the turntable closely, appears the whole thing is built on a plastic tray, which is suspended onto the wood frame. The plastic tray looks like a molded tub and quite cheap. I'm not sure if its worth the effort to rebuild this.

Are you sure it's plastic? it might be some kind of glass fibre? Even the 1980's Dual's like the CS505 had a pressed steel top-plate although quite a thin one (and therefore resonant).
Pretty surprising for a model thats meant to be from 1972. Maybe it was a low end one ? but that Dual website (http://www.dual-reference.com) says it was 189USD which in 1972 was quite expensive... curious.
Did you contact the service centre?

 

[Bob A (SD)]

I came across this old thread and couldn't resist posting. memepool has expressed a number of opinions that I share.

-- NOS DACS. I too find that they render Redbook CDs without the edginess too often found with complicated sampling schemes. To my ears that makes things sound more analog which for me is a good thing.

-- Vintage turntable equipment. My first table was the classic AR/XA bought in the mid 60s which I modified extensively. Later I had a number of quality direct drive units too but ultimately returned to the classic AR / Linn design picking up a George Merrill modified The AR Turntable. I've further modified it with mods available from Scillia (who is partnered with Merrill) and Whitacre. Being a long time Denon moving coil fan I continue to employ recent vintage DL103D and DL304 in my vintage Sumiko MMT tonearm. Proper care and maintenance of the table along with reasonable vinyl care provides a noise free rich dynamic sound. I've listened to other systems sporting newer expensive gear and remain convinced that tweaked vintage gear like mine competes very well head to head if not outright excelling. The fact that judicious acquisition of such gear can mean significant savings over the latest and greatest is just another big plus. Those who eschew vinyl really need to audition a "good" set up and A-B it with CDs. That said my Eastsound CD-E5/dAck! v2.0 combo gives my analog sources real competition

My continuing to own and use a Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck and Tandberg TD-20A reel deck is consistent with the above sentiments as these too are capable of providing extraordinary sound. In my case through bi-amped Magneplanar IIIa's

--Bob

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zowie I don't think dithering could have been a factor. They were only using 16 bits, at best, so there was nothing to dither.

Yes there was... dithering has to be applied to any digital recording in the first place, to prevent the "stairstep effect."

 

[flibottf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Yes there was... dithering has to be applied to any digital recording in the first place, to prevent the "stairstep effect."

Thats aliasing, dither is somethign else.... dither serves for extending information without requiring aditional bits when quatitizing or to retain information when reducing the wordlength...

You can minimize aliasing by increasing the sampling rate. I do not know if there's other ways tho..

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flibottf Thats aliasing, dither is somethign else.... dither serves for extending information without requiring aditional bits when quatitizing or to retain information when reducing the wordlength... You can minimize aliasing by increasing the sampling rate. I do not know if there's other ways tho..

This is why DAT sounds better than CD and DVD-A sounds better than either. The main problem with CD as far as I understand it is the brickwall filtering which makes it necessary for harmonics to stop dead at 21khz. If they fall away gradually as they naturally do on analogue equipment untill they get lost in the noise floor it doesn't sound so harsh.
Even though we are not supposed to be able to hear upto those frequencies there is obviously some harmonic information going on up there which is necessary.

 

[Leporello]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flibottf Thats aliasing, dither is somethign else.... dither serves for extending information without requiring aditional bits when quatitizing or to retain information when reducing the wordlength... You can minimize aliasing by increasing the sampling rate. I do not know if there's other ways tho..

But isn't the "stairsteps" effect Fewtch is talking about precisely the result of quantization error? There is a good article on dithering in Wikipedia.




Regards,

L.

 

[flibottf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leporello But isn't the "stairsteps" effect Fewtch is talking about precisely the result of quantization error? There is a good article on dithering in Wikipedia.

quatization error is an offset in relation to amplitude due to the lack of bit resolution. the more bits you have the less important the quantization error is. Dither helps in regard to that by expanding the snr without additional bits.

But you could add a zillion bits it wouldnt minimize the aliasing by much.