[Anaxilus]

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It may so happen that the sort of changes that typically occur over time and use are the sort of changes that tend to correlate with either 1. actual physical technical improvements, or 2. some physical changes that are perceived and interpreted as improvements.
 
I won't give examples of the first possibility because I don't have the data to do it, but I would speculate a bit on the second possibility, maybe people like smoothness or a sense of continuity without the harshness of real music, so perhaps simply wearing out the drivers past "whatever is considered technically most accurate" tends to make people like the sound more? Or maybe when highs become less piercing or distinct, it becomes easier to consciously focus on highs, so that although there is actually less highs, there is the perception of more high freq resolution.
 
I give these two possibility just as an alternative to the argument that "because burn-in is almost always perceived as an improvement, it must be placebo".

I totally agree with you on that point.  I need to differentiate between the hope for improvement versus the perceived factual knowledge of the end result.  It is not dissimilar to engine break in on a car.  The engine will not run at peak efficiency or performance until the compression rings seat, bearings and seals set, etc.  Those events are a result of engine wear.  All car engines are given a run in before they ever get to a dealer.   These are simple mechanical properties which will have a varying degree of impact on a case by case basis.   

 

[xnor]

I hate analogies.

 

[Danneq]

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I hate analogies.

 
Analogies rock!
 
How was it now again in that thread? "Music is like green pea soup". I never understood that one, though...

 

[Prog Rock Man]

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Different headphones are said to need different burn-in times to be settled in, ranging from none to 500+ hours. The amount of hours you could burn-in a certain headphone before letting it go, could be the amount of hours people generally say that headphone needs to be settled in. After that I'm pretty sure most burn-in believers would tell you to sell if you want to do so.
 
I like to listen closely for the first 10-20 hours to get a good idea of the sound characteristics of a new device, then if I want to burn it in quicker, I leave it on for 2 weeks, or 300 hours, then listen critically again and tweak around.

So based on the above, what is your percentage of burn in as a physical change to the headphone or mental perception? Can you site any study or evidence that there are mechanical changes that are audible over 500 hours? That seems excessive to the extreme.
 
The car analogy is very poor as the car has so many moving parts, particularly metal on metal, where there are know wear issues. A headphones driver may move, but it does not rub or wear like anything in an engine.

 

[haloxt]

It would be different person to person, and for the same person, it would be based on probability and many uncontrollable variables. The question you ask is complicated by the fact that IF there is a physical change, people will almost always overexaggerate it, underexaggerate it, or fail to hear it, very few people will be able to pinpoint exactly how and to what degree drivers have PHYSICALLY and TECHNICALLY changed, simply going by subjective listening impressions. What you're asking is almost like asking if a monkey can throw a three-pointer, and when he fails for 30 years, you claim it is impossible, even though you have done nothing to teach him how to throw three-pointers or provide him with the necessary tools.
 
So when someone says after 300 hours, x y z has happened, there are many technical changes that he has failed to hear, or falsely imagined, or his descriptions of technical changes may not be perfectly accurate. To the degree that these things are true, the proportion of "mental perception (illusion)" to "actual physical change" induced burn-in increases. And it is extremely easy to get false positives and false negatives when you don't give a damn about testing procedures while you test the extremes of human senses. Without a doubt some people are better test subjects than others, and some test procedures are better than others, and both of these factors will alter the ratio.
 
There is no easy way to measure these things. You can ask me if I have any evidence to support my points, but the fact of the matter is there is no evidence to even begin answering your question. I don't see how you are qualified to give a random ratio.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

If it is different from person to person then that does mean it is all in the head and not in the headphone.
 
Your monkey analogy does not work for me as it is about randomness. Headphones either mechanically change in such a manner their sound changes or they don't.
 
My original ratio of 5% to 95% was because I acknowledge that there may be, with some types of headphone construction a genuine mechanical change that can be heard

 

[Anaxilus]

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 A headphones driver may move, but it does not rub or wear like anything in an engine.

I said:
 
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 These are simple mechanical properties which will have a varying degree of impact on a case by case basis.   

For some reason you are simply not able to process that fundamental principles of physics, mechanics, electronics, material science apply to headphones as they do to everything else under the sun.  Go play w/ a paperclip for 10 minutes, does it feel the same as it did out of the box?  Nevermind, its not a headphone....poor analogy.  
 
Edit - Nvm, your last post seems to show you accept some phones can change due to differing construction.  Thats progress enough for me.  Good luck on your ratio.  The question needs more refinement otherwise you will be chasing phantoms.

 

[haloxt]

 
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If it is different from person to person then that does mean it is all in the head and not in the headphone.

 
No, it just means that the ratio would change under different circumstances.
 
 
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Your monkey analogy does not work for me as it is about randomness. Headphones either mechanically change in such a manner their sound changes or they don't.

 
People reporting their senses is pretty random too. With some changes it could be more or less random.
 
 
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My original ratio of 5% to 95% was because I acknowledge that there may be, with some types of headphone construction a genuine mechanical change that can be heard

 
Trying to make a ratio is just silly and counterproductive imo. If you want to understand the hows and whys of mental illusions, and the physics of headphones, I don't see what use a ratio is. Most of us simply don't know enough about psychology or physics to say anything for certain about these two questions, both of which must be thoroughly understood to even begin making educated guesses at the question you ask.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
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I said:
 

For some reason you are simply not able to process that fundamental principles of physics, mechanics, electronics, material science apply to headphones as they do to everything else under the sun.  Go play w/ a paperclip for 10 minutes, does it feel the same as it did out of the box?  Nevermind, its not a headphone....poor analogy.  
 
Edit - Nvm, your last post seems to show you accept some phones can change due to differing construction.  Thats progress enough for me.  Good luck on your ratio.  The question needs more refinement otherwise you will be chasing phantoms.

I do understand these processes, I just do not agree that the possible changes in a headphone are audible.

 

[haloxt]

Do you have scientific proof that it is not audible?
 
It is easy to show a certain monkey can't throw three-pointers by not training him or even giving him a basketball, it's another thing to prove he can't throw three-pointers after giving good effort into trying to make him throw three-pointers.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

No I don't, hence the thread title of "My theory...." I have then posted about my observations and experience of new and used headphones, where both can appear to 'burn in' as in their sound alters over time. From that I have concluded that it is not the headphone that is causing the audible change, it is me, my ears and my brain. I have also not seen any evidence to the contrary which shows a burned in headphone can be distinguished from a new one.
 
ABX blind testing of new and used headphones would be actual evidence.

 

[haloxt]

 
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From that I have concluded that it is not the headphone that is causing the audible change, it is me, my ears and my brain.

 
To scientifically conclude anything requires proof.
 
 
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I just do not agree that the possible changes in a headphone are audible.

 
Why don't you agree that it is at least possible? Do you have proof that it is not? Or just your theory. All this theory is just theory, guesses, they aren't proven facts.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Haloxt, again, yes everything is my theory based on my own thoughts and observations. If someone with proof that my theory is wrong, I will go with the proof.
 

 

[haloxt]

Much of what you say is based on your preconceived prejudices as well. Something I am always aware of is that many, but not all, anticablers lack the persistence to think through what they say and think, and they very rarely convince pro-cablers because of this. They would rather proclaim things like a bully saying "I bet you can't do x y z" and never consider what is the most pragmatic path even if they think they are right. If you care to discover the truth, don't resort to such tactics as if they are methods for attaining facts. Enough said.

 

[cravenz]

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Much of what you say is based on your preconceived prejudices as well. Something I am always aware of is that many, but not all, anticablers lack the persistence to think through what they say and think, and they very rarely convince pro-cablers because of this. They would rather proclaim things like a bully saying "I bet you can't do x y z" and never consider what is the most pragmatic path even if they think they are right. If you care to discover the truth, don't resort to such tactics as if they are methods for attaining facts. Enough said.

x 2 well said.