[Don Quichotte]

On short:
- Do you find it lacking in dynamics (macro- ? micro- ?) ? (please mention what kind of power supply are you using)
- How is the built quality? Somebody was disappointed with the Mini-Me's (the analog-digital brother converter).
- How good is the Apogee’s jitter rejection (beyond marketing claims)? I remember somebody saying it’s very sensitive to the digital cable used (brand and type – coax, tos, aes), which shouldn’t be the case for a reclocking dac.

After an incredibly long waiting, I finally missed for good the opportunity to audition a Benchmark Dac1, so I will buy “blind” the dac needed to complete my setup. I’ll pull the trigger at the beginning of the next week and the dac will probably arrive at the end of the October. It’s 80% going to be a Mini-Dac, but I just wanted to find out three more things about it. I hope this is really the last of my numerous posts asking endless questions about Benchmark, Apogee, Aqvox… I got tired of this…

As a side note, the Apogee customer support is pathetic, at least according to my sole experience with them. I asked them four simple things like what kind of power supply do they recommend as optimal for the Mini-Dac. First, they didn’t answer. At my second attempt, they said they lost my previous message, forgot to answer or something like this and asked me where I am from. I told them, and after another waiting period I received some very useful answers like “anything beyond 6-14 V DC and > 1.25 A works”. I politely pointed out that they didn’t actually answer, explaining clearly why is that. I also and “dared” to ask them further what are, in their opinion, the strong / less impressive points of the Mini-Dac form a SONIC (highlighted in the original message) point of view. While I wasn’t expecting much from them with respect to this last question, there were still a couple of unanswered questions like the one reffering to the power supply. After another week or so of waiting, they totally ignored my initial questions and said something like:
“Strong points: the best small dac on the market
Weak points: none”
I was kind of stupefied, believe me!

 

[Don Quichotte]

Well? Tiberian? Salt Peanuts? Other Mini-Dac owners? Just three simple answers like "1.no; 2.bad; 3.pretty good" and I'm satisfied

 

[bobeau]

I might be wrong on this but I believe Apogee is a much larger organization than the competition. You're not likely talking with an engineer or someone involved in design of the product.

 

[Nomad]

1- No
2- It's Good. I would say DAC-1's one is a bit better. Anyway it's good.
3- Sorry I can't comment. I only did swap Tosslink cables with no effect, but I didn't try coaxial ones.

It would help to know the rest of the setup in order to make sure the miniDAC is the right DAC for you.

 

[Don Quichotte]

Thank you, guys!

Nomad, the rest of my system consists of:
- Cambridge D300 CD player (to be used as a transport - toslink and BNC coaxial digital outs)
- Mackie HR824 active monitors
- Stax 3030 system and unamped AKG K501 headphones
- cheap but pretty good DIY cables based on Proel microphone cable; currently I am also using a DIY passive volume control based on Alps 50K log potentiometer
I am more concerned about the Apogee / Stax match because the Mackies I find to be pretty neutral and forgiving (not undetailed, just not aggressive). The only person I could ask about the Mini-Dac / Stax 3030 match is Salt Peanuts and he said the combo is pretty good, but somewhat bright.

Bobeau, I am sure you are right, but I am also sure that technical questions should be refered to competent persons, especially when the potential customer insists and the first mail has been dispatched to the "technical problems & ..." - something like that, I don't remember. And especially since we are talking about a reputable company!

 

[Salt Peanuts]

1. Not really - I'm using the standard power supply that came with the DAC. I have heard that using an Elpac w/ decent power cord provides some improvement. I'll see if I can find out the specific model number for Elpac.

2. I have no issues with the build quality. ECD 1's bit better, IMO, though.

3. Don't really know.

I've been using Philips 963SA as transport, and I've been told that it is on a lean and analytical side as a transport (I don't have a point of reference to compare, since I don't have another full-sized player as a transport). I should be getting a new transport soon, which is supposedly more musical and full sounding.

 

[Nomad]

Those Stax are bright so pretty much everything is going to sound somewhat bright. The Apogee is the DAC I would use with bright headphones as its full, warm sound tame a bit any bright setup. The HE60 are another bright electrostatic cans and they work very well with the MiniDAC. I wouldn't use a DAC1 there, for example.

If you still find the MiniDAC bright with your Stax I'd suggest to experiment with ICs

The K-501 will sound very nice straight for the MiniDAC. Unfortunately, it won't fix the lack of bass of the 501 although they will hep there a bit. On the bright side, you will find the already fantastic midrange even more enjoyable.

I would say the MiniDAC is a fine pick for you. But you wanted to hear it, anyway. Isn't it?

Enjoy it

 

[Nomad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt Peanuts I've been using Philips 963SA as transport, and I've been told that it is on a lean and analytical side as a transport (I don't have a point of reference to compare, since I don't have another full-sized player as a transport). I should be getting a new transport soon, which is supposedly more musical and full sounding.

Is that so? I always thought the transport doesn't change sound signatures. It just send the bits to the DAC and it is the DAC the one which creates warm/full/lean/bright/smooth sound from them.

Maybe these sound reviews were for the DACs included on those transports? If different tranports feed a same DAC the sound should be prety much the same (assuming no jitter, etc), isn't it?

I might be wrong, though. Interesting...

 

[Don Quichotte]

Quote:

I would say the MiniDAC is a fine pick for you. But you wanted to hear it, anyway. Isn't it?

Well, yeah, I must admit it...

Quote:

The Apogee is the DAC I would use with bright headphones as its full, warm sound tame a bit any bright setup.

Yes, I know it's warm and full, but some users said it also has elevated treble (although smooth and non-aggressive), supposedly to compensate a somewhat "dull" sound - and this, along with Ian's remark that "it's not the most dynamic" made me wonder. I really care for good, not necessarily outstanding, but good dynamics, so that music can breathe, otherwise I feel it doesn't transmit it's emotional message as it should...

I thought about tuning the sound a bit with a warm IC too, but after I have listened to a Van Der Hul "The Name" (I know, a low end Van der Hul, but I've also heard the D102mk3 and it has the same sound signature - a friend of mine even prefered "The Name") and found my cheap DIY IC better even with the Stax (i.e. much more "correct" and natural and with better impact and air; the VdH sounded sometimes like coming from the water, especially the piano, and the midbass was confuze), I'm not so sure...

Quote:

If different tranports feed a same DAC the sound should be prety much the same (assuming no jitter, etc), isn't it?

Unfortunately, no. And this is precisely because of jitter - there is no "no jitter". All SPDIF connections are jittery, and not only them. A "perfect" copied CD (with EAC, etc. etc.) sounds different (obviously worse, in my experience, althought I've also heard opposite claims that I cannot really explain) from the original. I can only explain this as a jitter problem. Now, one of the solutions against the jitter inherent to the SPDIF is reclocking - what the Benchmark, Apogee, Bel Canto, Aqvox and other more expensive Dacs are doing - different flavours, perhaps the implementation is better or worse, but the main idea is the same. Reclocking does not result in a totally jitter immune Dac as Benchmark claims, for example, but a certain degree of transport and cable dependency (i.e. jitter dependency) stil persists. While the Benchmark is said to be indeed good in this respect, I don't know how good is the Apogee implementation.

Salt Peanuts, you're a big help once again, thanks!

 

[Nomad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte Unfortunately, no. And this is precisely because of jitter - there is no "no jitter". All SPDIF connections are jittery, and not only them. A "perfect" copied CD (with EAC, etc. etc.) sounds different (obviously worse, in my experience, althought I've also heard opposite claims that I cannot really explain) from the original. I can only explain this as a jitter problem. Now, one of the solutions against the jitter inherent to the SPDIF is reclocking - what the Benchmark, Apogee, Bel Canto, Aqvox and other more expensive Dacs are doing - different flavours, perhaps the implementation is better or worse, but the main idea is the same. Reclocking does not result in a totally jitter immune Dac as Benchmark claims, for example, but a certain degree of transport and cable dependency (i.e. jitter dependency) stil persists. While the Benchmark is said to be indeed good in this respect, I don't know how good is the Apogee implementation.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I would never thought the transport would have a big impact on the sonic signature. You are always learning things in here. And most of them force you to spend more money in sections you thouhgt weren't that relevant!

 

[Salt Peanuts]

Here's the model number for an Elpac power supply that would work with Mini-DAC: MW2412, output 12V 2A max
The power supply has an IEC receptacle instaed of a C7 receptacle that's on regular Mini-DAC power supply.

I've been told that it gives quieter background and fuller bass, but I haven't gotten around to trying it out myself.

 

[Don Quichotte]

Thanks! Perhaps I will try that too, but first I am planning to experiment with SLA batteries. Also, putting it on some damping feet it's been said to help the upper bass and midrange bloom, but I'm pretty sceptic on this.

Yesterday I have listened to a Lynx professional sound card, I don't know the model, with my Stax. The sound was very clean, with tight and punchy bass and good air. For one reason or another, I had some noticeable hum (perhaps I shouldn't have left the pin 3 floating in the adapter I had built?!) that detracted from the performance and didn't allow me to get a better picture on how good was the low level detail, etc. etc. Anyway, the sound was really nice, but it was clear that a bit more warmth would be more than welcome with the Stax. With the Mackies it was, as far as I could tell, excellent.

So I decided for the Mini-Dac. Finally! I've already contacted the shop (it's a Canadian one) and my friend from Canada to ask him to do the payment and stuff. Hopefully in three weeks I will have it and in one month from now I will post my detailed impressions. Many thanks once again to all of you guys who had the patience to answer my unceassing questions and help me reach a decision. I'm pretty sure it's a good one.

 

[DukeTogo]

Don,

Just curious - which shop in Canada are you buying from?

Are you buying the model with the USB, or without?
(Reminds me they never *have* come out with a Firewire card for that yet...)

Can you share the price you're paying at that store?
(if not, don't worry about it...)

Enjoy your purchase, and happy listening!
Cheers,
DT

PS. regarding the SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries, who are you looking at?
Eco-Charge? http://www.ecocharge.com/

 

[carlosgp]

Hi Don Quichotte,
Why do you prefer apogee mini-dac to the aqvox? Only to know your opinion. Though still evaluating, I'm almost decided for aqvox because the price. Mini-DAC is 999€ here in spain.

 

[Don Quichotte]

DukeTogo

I’m buying the version with USB from RVA Canada and the price is 1175 canadian dollars + 15% taxes + 15 dollars shipping to Ottawa (they are in Toronto).
Regarding the SLAs, I think the eco-charge are nice but SO expensive! I will use a couple of Chinese, Korean or I-don’t-know-what SLA batteries I can find here in Romanian for ~ 10 USD or so /piece. Unfortunately, they don’t have the nice connectors of the Eco’s. I am planning to put them together in a case with a recharger, a led to show me when a battery gets empty and a switch so that I can use either one while the other one gets recharged (rough description of the concept

).
Thanks for the greetings!


Carlosgp

Well, the Aqvox is definitely cheaper, especially for an European. If you will do a simple calculation you will find out that I am going to pay about 975 Euro for the USB Apogee, and I’m praying not to have to pay another significant amount as taxes when entering my country, but there are also other aspects that made me decide for it (not necessarily in this order):
-I have read more about it (I don’t speak German) and Apogee is an older and more reputable company
-While Aqvox seems to receive praises from the ones who own it, I wonder why the said-to-be-identical CEC DA53, available quite for a while now, didn’t make any waves
-Cosmopragma said the Aqvox’ tonal response is similar to Sennheiser HD600 (lots of bass, somewhat subdued mids), something that would not be quite ideal for my tastes and would probably be a not so good match to my Mackies. I expect the Apogee to have a more balanced “personality” and perhaps more detail
-The Mini-Dac’s portability will probably become useful to me in half an year or so, and “safer” USB connectivity (Aqvox will send you to usb-audio.com for a driver to bypass the Windows K-Mixer and get bit perfect USB transfer), the ability to run it from batteries, the headphone amp and the variable XLR output (nice for my Mackies) are good to have too. Although Aqvox has some other nice features like defeatable upsampling, a choice of two filters, a phase switch, RCA unbalanced outs (against Mini-Dac’s minijack) and so on.