My search for great thrash metal headphones
May 4, 2009 at 8:41 AM Post #31 of 226
Yes, the HD600 is definitely slow. Also it doesn't have the best imaging in the world, and detail is only pretty good. But on the plus side it does have very accurate tone and is generally very neutral compared to a lot of more colored headphones. The HD650 IME is faster and has better detail and imaging, especially balanced. Still, metal is not its best genre.
 
May 4, 2009 at 6:07 PM Post #32 of 226
Glad to see that you guys agree! The first song I listened to on the HD 600's last night was "Kick the Chair," and it was obvious right away that something was missing.

Granted, I don't listen to metal exclusively, but it is the majority of what I listen to. Metal is energetic music, and what's the point if some of that is missing in the presentation?

I didn't get a chance to spin any Megadeth vinyl last night, but I'm hoping that I will tonight after work. If I'm awake enough, I'll post impressions in about, oh, 13 hours
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Thanks for the comments everyone!
 
May 5, 2009 at 8:02 AM Post #34 of 226
Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think you can make a strong case that the original RIP is better than the remastered.


I'm giving the original master a spin on vinyl right now. You might be right. This version IS really good. I do like that Mustaine brought his own vocals a little more forward in the remixed version, but "Take No Prisoners" does sound better in its original presentation.

It's kind of tough to make a direct comparison, since the drums sound so much crisper on vinyl, and everything in general has a more lifelike quality to it.
 
May 5, 2009 at 8:12 AM Post #35 of 226
Sorry for the silly question, but what exactly does speed mean? Does it mean the length of time the headphones take to resolve the bass? For example: slow headphones have mushy bass and low notes that cling to eachother while fast headphones have punch bass with quick impact?
 
May 5, 2009 at 8:13 AM Post #36 of 226
This is a great thread. Thanks for the effort you've put in! I can't wait to read your Darth Beyer reviews. I personally listen to metal with my balanced W5000. If you have a chance you should try it. In terms of bass quality it's the best I've heard. The bass impact is not the best but in balanced drive it's pretty good.

By the way, what is your amp and source?
 
May 5, 2009 at 6:36 PM Post #37 of 226
Quote:

Originally Posted by t1337Dude /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry for the silly question, but what exactly does speed mean? Does it mean the length of time the headphones take to resolve the bass? For example: slow headphones have mushy bass and low notes that cling to eachother while fast headphones have punch bass with quick impact?


This is kind of a tough one to answer. My interpretation of speed is not only the time it takes to resolve the bass, but the ability to resolve small details as well. For example, in fast riffing, a headphone with high speed can portray the plucks as independent things, rather than blurring them together. Slower headphones seem to have more decay between the notes (at least this is what I've been hearing), so if the guitarist is, say, palm-muting between notes, you won't hear the abrupt stop-start that is intended; instead, you hear the note wind down before stopping completely.

Additionally, as I discovered while listening critically to the HD 600s, slower headphones cannot resolve the background details that are played behind very fast notes. My example was with "Mechanix" on Megadeth's first album. We know what the rhythm guitar riff is supposed to sound like, because it's been played throughout the song. Then Mustaine lets loose with his solo at the end, and the rhythm guitar turns to mush on the HD 600s. The SA5000 can partially resolve the rhythm guitar behind the solo, but even it cannot keep up fully.

In slower music, this isn't a problem really. But throw on some speed metal, and you're robbed of the energy (in my opinion) that makes this music great. In extreme cases, you're even missing out on entire notes and nuances to the song. You've gotta hear it to understand it fully, I think.

Can anyone else offer an explanation of speed? Anyone who has heard electrostats, perhaps?
 
May 5, 2009 at 7:00 PM Post #38 of 226
Quote:

Originally Posted by XXII /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This is a great thread. Thanks for the effort you've put in! I can't wait to read your Darth Beyer reviews. I personally listen to metal with my balanced W5000. If you have a chance you should try it. In terms of bass quality it's the best I've heard. The bass impact is not the best but in balanced drive it's pretty good.

By the way, what is your amp and source?



Thanks for the kind words, XXII! The Headphile reviews will have to wait until Friday morning, perhaps, because I'm swamped between school and work. I'm tempted to chop apart the cable and reterminate the V4's to balanced, but I'm also thinking of selling them, so I don't want to void Larry's warranty or cause any problems like that.

My source is the 2009 Valab DAC. It's got a good sense of timing, and better bass impact, vs. computer sound cards, or the E-MU 0202. It can't handle anything higher than CD quality since it's a non-oversampling design. Actually, buying this DAC was what got me back into music. I really like the energy it brings to the presentation.

My amp is a custom design. Perhaps I'll spare you the engineering details, but I'm really happy with the way it turned out. I actually designed this amp to run Grados, because that's what I was using at the time, and I was tired of plugging into my receiver to get the current they needed. By itself, with the volume turned up 100%, my amp doesn't produce any audible hiss, even in balanced mode. It's not class A (I think it's AB), but after trying a couple of class A amps, I couldn't personally tell the difference. The only difference I could tell was whether there was any noise, does it provide enough power for the bass, and if it was using tubes or not.

I considered putting together a Beta 22, but I think I'll just listen to one at CanJam and see if there's an audible improvement. I'd much rather put the money towards the Audio-GD Reference 1 DAC. See Prickley Peete's excellent thread on it here.
 
May 5, 2009 at 10:50 PM Post #39 of 226
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris19 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Can anyone else offer an explanation of speed? Anyone who has heard electrostats, perhaps?


Hey don't look at me, I have exactly zero technical knowledge
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but speed I think is simply how quickly a diaphragm responds to the signal. An electrostatic diaphragm is nearly weightless and will therefore dissipate energy much faster and will respond to any minute oscillation in the signal, whereas a dynamic membrane has a heavy voice coil on it and tends to build up a lot more momentum, which makes it very difficult to follow minute subtle changes in the signal especially when there is already a lot going on.

In listening terms, Chris19 has it exactly right and the more you overload a slow transducer the more details begin to be lost, and the details to go are the ones that are obscured by other layers. When you have slow, transparent music you really don't feel it very much which is why I cringe whenever people use the typical smooth jazz and acoustic vocal recordings to evaluate gear. This type of music doesn't really evaluate anything besides midrange tone, treble resolution, and overall frequency response, and few people outside of musicians, producers, and regular acoustic concert goers have any idea what natural tone is really supposed to be like in the first place. But when you listen to an electrostat, music can get as fast and as hectic as possible and you can still hear every single detail on every single layer, and there is no detail blurring whatsoever. Things simply stay transparent and clear throughout with any genre, and when you play metal you can hear the texture on every single cymbal and the reverb on every single drumstroke, and when you play large-scale orchestral pieces you can hear the texture on every single violin/viola/cello/etc that makes up the string section. You can tell exactly what row and what row position every musician was in, you can tell how things were mic'd, and you can feel the size of the venue and its acoustic characteristics. Of course you can do that too on a top dynamic system that is fast, but dynamics simply cannot reach the speed and resolution under load that electrostatics are capable of by design. Even the Qualia 010, which is as detailed as an electrostatic under a lighter load, cannot cope with complex music as well as a 'stat.

'Stats have their own problems and the driver has very limited excursion by design, so you have issues with sub-bass reproduction as well as tactile impact. The drivers simply struggle to displace a lot of air and you have to have very large driver surfaces to compensate, or try and increase driver/stator gap up to maximum theoretical limits, and all of this presents its own set of design problems and a very difficult load for an amplifier besides. The O2 Mk1 breaks new ground in terms of tactile impact and sub-bass presentation for an electrostat, but in turn it presents a massively challenging load for any amplifier which is why only a few amps (717, KGSS, BH/BHSE, possibly new Woo amp) will do.

Edit: The TakeT H2 piezoelectric ribbon driver is actually very fascinating because it has both the speed of an electrostatic and the excursion of a dynamic, in fact it has even more tactile impact than your typical dynamic. But, it also presents a very unique set of challenges of an amplifier and there really isn't anything on the market that can drive it properly besides the fairly undersized and underpowered transformer box that it comes with.
 
May 6, 2009 at 9:22 PM Post #42 of 226
Hi, Kinda new to the Hi-Fi scene. Been lurking for a long while. I listen to alot of metal, mostly progressive, Dream Theater, Tool, Riverside, Symphony X, Stratovarious, etc. The most Hi-fi stuff I own is a pair of Audioengine A2's and a old pair of Shure e2c that no longer work. I'm looking to get some nice stuff to run off my Computer. Any suggestions where to start? Budget is rather low at moment, under $500. Was thinking of starting with a portable or desktop amp/dac and a decent pair of cans. what would you recommend?
 
May 6, 2009 at 9:43 PM Post #43 of 226
the A2's are good little things.. upgrade your dac first (assuming your library is good).. a <$500 dac unit will go a great way towards headphones or speakers.. so its a great place to start.. then later decide if you're a speaker or headphone guy and get a good pair
 
May 7, 2009 at 7:28 AM Post #44 of 226
My Grado SR325is = perfect for thrash metal. Megadeth's "Rust In Peace" (The original press, not the awful 2004 remix and remaster) sounds awesome, as well as Death Angel - Killing Season, Testament - Low, Kreator - Hordes of Chaos. Great speed, detail and impact.
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May 7, 2009 at 2:59 PM Post #45 of 226
I would love to show you my headphone system and how it plays the heavy guitars after the fluffy bit at the start of 'Fight Fire With Fire'. It's like being beaten up!
And with the 770s 'Liar' sounded fab, the bass guitar sounded awesome in them cans...I sold them, and in their own right the DT990 pro play metallica with heaps of detail in the guitars, sounds great again.
It all sounds effing awesome on my sennheiser cans, 650 and 580
I have plenty of metal and my headphone/vinyl system is worth 10,000AU.
It is a metal machine.
I could go on about it for hours and hours.
I got 4 anthrax records too.
I wish I could show you it. I've got noone to show off my system to
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I love my vinyl system for all musics, but seriously it LOVES gettin up and chucking metal down my ears. The half hour power of 'Reign', the drum sound on 'Garage days Rerevisited', the separation in Andy Wallace mixes - listen to 'Seasons' on my hifi man.
And its only getting better when I get my Supex cartridge back.
Long Live Two Channel Analog Audio
 

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