[Hybrys]

So, some of you regulars have probably seen me lurking/posting around the computer audio forums lately... I've been looking for a good DAC, and my mind is truely starting to melt.

I'm a tad bit OCD, so I'm trying to maximize potential. I can't afford something outstanding like the Benchmark DAC1 or the Peachtree Audio Nova, but I'm looking for something that will really wow me, and improve quality.

I'm trying to get a wider opinion, because the more I read, the more I'm confused and defeated in my picks. I've got the amp, and I've got the cans, and I know what I want from my sound experience... I just can't figure out which DAC I want. It can be DAC only (preferred) or it can be DAC/Amp, if it's the right experience and the right price.

The source: Gateway P-7805u. FLAC 16 and 24 bit. Various freq between 44-96. SPDIF mini, HP out, USB, and Firewire available.

The amp: PPA - LME49720/LME49710 opamps, 3x buf634 buffers, gain of 5.5x

The cans: Shure SRH440. Lower-end cans. Very nice highs and mids, lacks a bit in the bass. Plan on upgrading to HD650s or HD800s in a few months.

The experience: I want a little more out of the bass, and I love a wide soundstage. I love listening to acoustics, heavy rock, and electronica.

The budget: $500 or less. Less is better. I'll even consider a good sales pitch, if you're selling your old DAC.

The ins/outs: To DAC: TOSLINK preferred. USB/Firewire acceptable. Must be able to handle 24/96 min. Yes, I do need it. From DAC: Balanced is a bonus, not required. To PC: The idea of having a proper in from the DAC to the PC seems nice. If I can have that, and not dramatically bring up the price point vs sound out quality, I would love it. If not, that's fine.

Thank you greatly for any opinions you can share. And thank you, all you regulars that make this an EXTREMELY confusing, but entertaining forum. = D

Edit: Proof all this is doing some kind of damage: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...4/mindmelt.jpg Notice how I have the same tab open... THREE TIMES.

 

[CSMR]

This forum is hugely OCD. Here's some cognitive-behavioral therapy from me:

Any USB soundcard made by a pro-audio company (E-MU, RME etc.) will give analog outputs that are indistinguishable from a live feed by a long way. This is true even of older 16/44 DACs so certainly true of hugely superior 24/96 (for example) soundcards that measure way beyond the maximum potential of 16/44.

You have gone to town on the amplifier, so you don't need to worry about that, it's already overkill.

What matters then are headphones and dsp. Dsp has a lot of potential for headphones and really a computer audio forum should be mainly about dsp instead of insane hocus pocus. The trouble is it's hard to do, but if done right it can make almost any headphone resemble whatever you want it to. (There was a paper which I think took a relatively cheap headphone and made it audibly identical to some high-end headphone using dsp. Lost the reference unfortunately.) Unfortunately dsp is hard to get right without sophisticated measuring equipment and software and a lot of thought.

So if you don't use dsp you're stuck with headphones being the decisive factor, and you may have to spend a lot to get what you want. Once you have a sound card that works, don't worry about anything except the headphones. And once you've found headphones you like, don't worry about anything against music!

Hope that helps.

 

[Hybrys]

It does help, and I appreciate the good post.

I'm basically thinking, though, that I can get better musical quality from the optical out on my laptop, to an optical in on a DAC, then to the amp, etc. So, I'm basically looking for suggestions in the way of that.

I'd LOVE to read that paper if you can happen to find it. I'm a computer geek / theatre nerd / audiophile... So it's the perfect combination to make something like that work.

 

[Pepsi]

The Keces 131 mk2 is a great dac that meets your standards. Optical/Supports 24/19/$350 shipped. Here is a link: Acoustic-Fun

Also, Check these links out, i think it'll help you out a whole lot.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/all...an-buy-197674/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/al...pt-2-a-325941/

 

[CSMR]

If I remember I'll post it. I posted it on this forum before, where I don't know, a long time ago.

I would recommend a soundcard rather than DAC because
-it saves cables
-if your laptop optical out is only 16bit you will lose resolution unless you use full volume and asio/wasapi. But maybe you were saying your laptop has a 24/96 optical out: pretty impressive for integrated sound.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSMR /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I remember I'll post it. I posted it on this forum before, where I don't know, a long time ago. I would recommend a soundcard rather than DAC because -it saves cables -if your laptop optical out is only 16bit you will lose resolution unless you use full volume and asio/wasapi. But maybe you were saying your laptop has a 24/96 optical out: pretty impressive for integrated sound.

My laptop optical out is 24/96. Can't do 24/192, though. Still, impressive, and awesome, and deserving of an awesome DAC.

 

[HeatFan12]

Hello Hybrys,

Don't let your mind melt, you won't be able to enjoy the music.

Many to choose from in that price range.

Here are two that I own and commented briefly on http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ma...-dac_i-467990/

DAC shopping is fun. Don't let it get to you...

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatFan12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello Hybrys, Don't let your mind melt, you won't be able to enjoy the music. Many to choose from in that price range. Here are two that I own and commented briefly on http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ma...-dac_i-467990/ DAC shopping is fun. Don't let it get to you...

I love that those have balanced outs, pretty much what I'm looking for. I was heavily debating the Cambridge Audio DACMAGIC though, because it upsamples to 24/192. Do either of these units do that aswell?

 

[HeatFan12]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrys /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love that those have balanced outs, pretty much what I'm looking for. I was heavily debating the Cambridge Audio DACMAGIC though, because it upsamples to 24/192. Do either of these units do that aswell?

Absolutely, all three 24/192...I also own the DacMagic...You can't go wrong with any of the three.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatFan12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Absolutely, all three 24/192...I also own the DacMagic...You can't go wrong with any of the three.

Which would you recommend for good highs/mids and a big soundstage, and price vs value?

 

[HeatFan12]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrys /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which would you recommend for good highs/mids and a big soundstage, and price vs value?

LD DAC_I

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatFan12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif LD DAC_I

Consider it bought. Thanks for your help through this MAZE OF INSANITY.

 

[HeatFan12]

Great choice...My pleasure...

 

[bixby]

FWIW- My comments below. I was in similar boat a few years ago. Trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, if you will, when reading posts and forums. Believe me until you hear a number of items you have read about you will not be able to do so. There is a lot of exaggeration in audio forum land. Not meant to misinform but rather the result of enthusiastic discovery. Lots of new folks to computer audio or anyone who is experiencing what this hobby can throw at them often times expresses small differences or preferences as BIG differences and conclusions of "rightness".

FWIW- I have been listening and investing in audio hardware for many decades and lots of what you will read can be taken with a grain of salt until you hear it. (Problem is that is very hard to do. Thank goodness for HF meets.) Then you have a reference point and can begin to apply your personal bias or filter to what is presented. Even the professional reviews and my own comments will lead one to believe that the differences are quite noticeable or big, perhaps they are to experienced listeners and to those who have definite preferences in what they like.

Enough rambling, though, you are here asking for opinions so FWIW I have listed some comments below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrys /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, some of you regulars have probably seen me lurking/posting around the computer audio forums lately... I've been looking for a good DAC, and my mind is truely starting to melt. I'm a tad bit OCD, so I'm trying to maximize potential. I can't afford something outstanding like the Benchmark DAC1 or the Peachtree Audio Nova, but I'm looking for something that will really wow me, and improve quality. Two different animals by the way. Both worthy and I feel preference will depend ultimately upon what cans you plan to use with them. I'm trying to get a wider opinion, because the more I read, the more I'm confused and defeated in my picks. I've got the amp, and I've got the cans, and I know what I want from my sound experience... I just can't figure out which DAC I want. It can be DAC only (preferred) or it can be DAC/Amp, if it's the right experience and the right price. The source: Gateway P-7805u. FLAC 16 and 24 bit. Various freq between 44-96. SPDIF mini, HP out, USB, and Firewire available. The amp: PPA - LME49720/LME49710 opamps, 3x buf634 buffers, gain of 5.5x The cans: Shure SRH440. Lower-end cans. Very nice highs and mids, lacks a bit in the bass. Plan on upgrading to HD650s or HD800s in a few months. I have not heard the Shure 440s but settled on the 840s after owning Senn 650s and AKG 601s. I just like the bass and more natural and up front mids than the other two. Also like the price compared to the likes of 701s and Senn 800s. I feel a very good front end will give you a better experience overall with decent cans than a cheaper front and better cans. The experience: I want a little more out of the bass, and I love a wide soundstage. I love listening to acoustics, heavy rock, and electronica. The budget: $500 or less. Less is better. I'll even consider a good sales pitch, if you're selling your old DAC. The ins/outs: To DAC: TOSLINK preferred. USB/Firewire acceptable. Must be able to handle 24/96 min. Yes, I do need it. From DAC: Balanced is a bonus, not required. To PC: The idea of having a proper in from the DAC to the PC seems nice. If I can have that, and not dramatically bring up the price point vs sound out quality, I would love it. If not, that's fine. Whoa, that limits the field. Pepsi has a link to a great resource list of dacs. My preference would be to get a tried and true DAC like a Lavry DA-10 or Benchmark DAC1 used. My preference was for the DAC1. While a number of folks think the DAC is bright it is not anything as bright as the sound a system fitted with AKG 601 or 701 would give you or Ety ER4s. You just have to do some small things like pay attention to the interconnects and power cable for example to get smooth clean mids and highs with excellent deep bass. And it has a big advantage over lots of lower priced DACS. It is really fairly immune to jitter from the source. And lots of devices using optical out or spdif coax have high jitter. An yes both the Lavry and Benchmark have the higher res capability and balanced out you have on your short list. Thank you greatly for any opinions you can share. And thank you, all you regulars that make this an EXTREMELY confusing, but entertaining forum. = D Edit: Proof all this is doing some kind of damage: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...4/mindmelt.jpg Notice how I have the same tab open... THREE TIMES.

So to sum up if it were me, I would hold off spending the big $ on Senn 800s or 650s and concentrate on the front end, and perhaps a lower priced HP with a better source. Then again if you have heard the Senns and really like their sound then go for it and do the best you can with the DAC.

To the OPs comment on DSP, I am not sure what they meant, but if they meant Digital signal processing as in let's change the signal via EQ or spatial effects to make my headphone sound the way I want, I am not a big fan. Especially because you add even more cost. EQ can rarely solve a inherent issue in response with a HP unless it is minor. And you should obviously do so with care, no 12db boosts at 40hz to get more low end when the driver is not capable of it let's say. But it can be helpful. As for spatial effects, let's just leave that one alone altogether.

Hope this is helping to solidify your brain and not turn it into more drippage

Good listening and good luck. Let us know how it all turns out.

 

[Hybrys]

Thanks for your VERY constructive comments, Bixby. I would love to be able to audition the Benchmark DAC_1, Lavry DA-10, and other high end DACs, but that's not really feasible. I am a student, and I'm way out in a place they apparently don't like listening with headphones. I spent a full day in downtown Victoria (Canada), our provinces capital, looking for good audio shops, and all I could find was people trying to sell home theatres, or huge expensive tube amps. I do dream for the day I can make it down to a Head-Fi meetup or something of the sort, but, it doesn't look feasible in the next few years either.

I was a major fan of the Senn HD800s when I tested them out, but, that might have also been the infamous price point placebo. I'm glad you're enjoying the SRH840s; From my instore demo, my SRH440s are just a little rougher around highs, and definitely not as much bass.

I would usually agree about DSPs, but I was designing some sounds for a small theatre festival we are having, and I found myself applying a compressor a lot. It got me to thinking that maybe, with the right hardware/software/time invested, you could see something better from almost anything. That being said, it would require a lot of time.

Thanks. = D