[brent75]

Beginner question: what is a U-shaped response?

(So I can know if I would like it or not)

 

[OMGLadyGaga]

Beginner question: what is a U-shaped response?

(So I can know if I would like it or not)

It just means it has both emphasized bass and emphasized treble

 

[Wapencio]

Well, pal, first I think you are being too aggressive over slangs. Low, mid and hi-fi are words that people use in an attempt to express the overall quality of a product, not the price. I can say Beats Studios are low fi, but that doesnt tell anything about their price, and they are pretty expensive. You shouldnt demonize the audio slangs, they make life easier. Maybe you didnt get the concept quite well, and thats why your against it, or maybe because you dont like any kind of slangs.
 
In case you dont get what these slangs are about, read these two examples:
 
"Fidelio X2s are a pretty good product overall, and they are cheap.
 Fidelio X2s are a mid-fi product, and they are cheap."
 
"LCD-2s are an excellent product overall, and they are expensive.
 LCD-2s are a hi-fi product, and are expensive."
 
Note that users can say mid-fi or hi-fi, or cheap, or expensive, based on their own perception. Something could seem hi-fi for me and it could be mid- fi for you. Something could seem as expensive for you, but cheap for me.
 
Now, about "my graph", they are just a model about how I think the world of headphones work. Of course, I dont think this graph is absolute, because it simply cannot explain the existence of the Beats series, for example. And, what decides the overall quality for the products are users, if a lot of users say something is hi-fi, then it must be hi-fi. Of course, I am not saying this must be truth, but its how information works, and the only way the graph could possibly work, again, as an imperfect tool of prediction, which could have an error in like, say (i think) 1/10 times, which is not bad for being an unrefined, raw log function.

 

[varzyl]

  Well, Ive seen many reviewers classifying the X2s, and many other headphones in the "mid-fi" category. These include the PM-3, the Mad Dogs, the HE-400i. I guess "mid-fi" means of a solid quality in terms of materials, comfort and sound, but not as good as the other big brothers, like the PM-1, or the HE-6. Although the X2s have no "big brother", they could be qualified as "mid-fi" because of their quality in overall, according to my research, they are "pretty good", but not "excellent", which would be "hi-fi", like the LCD-2, etc.

 
Quote:

  Well, with $400 budget you are in the "mid-fi" territory. What is mid-fi? Well, if you ask me it's just a term. I consider it a pretty nice spot to be in, considering that HD6x0, Fidelio X2, Hifiman 400s\i and many others good phones belong here.
What is accepted as hifi usually goes for $1000 or more. Is it worth it? Personal opinion. Consider that after the first $200-300, all increased $ spent brings to lesser increased quality. Over $1000 the slope of diminishing return is even more flat.
 
Your choice

 
I think I started a discussion on the mid-fi vs hi-fi term over a misunderstanding of OP with Wapencio. I thought OP wasn't liking the Fidelio X2 suggestions just because it was labelled as "mid fi", hence with no appeal to him. Sorry for derailing the thread a little, OP.
 
BTW, I agree with that graph and everything that was told after it.
 
Again, OP, try to catch a good deal on the Fidelios. Put a price alert and wait some time if the buy is not urgent. Or look for second hand deals\amazon warehouse.
If you are good with modding you could try with the T51p (ZMF sells one with their pads also, nice deal).

 

[Me x3]

  Well, pal, first I think you are being too aggressive over slangs. Low, mid and hi-fi are words that people use in an attempt to express the overall quality of a product, not the price. I can say Beats Studios are low fi, but that doesnt tell anything about their price, and they are pretty expensive. You shouldnt demonize the audio slangs, they make life easier. Maybe you didnt get the concept quite well, and thats why your against it, or maybe because you dont like any kind of slangs.
 
In case you dont get what these slangs are about, read these two examples:
 
"Fidelio X2s are a pretty good product overall, and they are cheap.
 Fidelio X2s are a mid-fi product, and they are cheap."
 
"LCD-2s are an excellent product overall, and they are expensive.
 LCD-2s are a hi-fi product, and are expensive."
 
Note that users can say mid-fi or hi-fi, or cheap, or expensive, based on their own perception. Something could seem hi-fi for me and it could be mid- fi for you. Something could seem as expensive for you, but cheap for me.
 
Now, about "my graph", they are just a model about how I think the world of headphones work. Of course, I dont think this graph is absolute, because it simply cannot explain the existence of the Beats series, for example. And, what decides the overall quality for the products are users, if a lot of users say something is hi-fi, then it must be hi-fi. Of course, I am not saying this must be truth, but its how information works, and the only way the graph could possibly work, again, as an imperfect tool of prediction, which could have an error in like, say (i think) 1/10 times, which is not bad for being an unrefined, raw log function.

I agree with your graph, that's what diminishing returns mean.
 
What I say is that people normally use the term mid-fi in the wrong manner based mostly on price.
 
LCD-2 are heavy, had plenty of inconsistencies through the years (bad driver matching, drivers failing from time to time, lot of revisions), average soundstage but you say that it's an "excellent hi fi product" because it costs 1000usd.
 
Then the more consistent, neutral, open sounding and comfortable Beyerdynamic DT880 is just a "mid-fi" product because it costs less than 300usd...
 
Given a certain degree of fidelity --> personal preferences and matching the right headphones with your recordings become much more important than absolute fidelity (something extremely difficult to measure or quantify by the way)
 
People tend to oversimplify problems so they'll normally believe that if LCD-2s are much more expensive they should be in a superior class.
 
That's why I normally suggest to say mid-priced hi-fi instead of mid-fi to avoid misunderstanding.

 

[Wapencio]

Now your point seems clearer and acceptable, I think its a quite logical way of thinking. There will be a lot more of logical ways of thinking and we will (or are already) probably refer to one concept with many different expressions. Maybe we need to apply a consensus and add a definitive meaning for those words on http://www.head-fi.org/a/glossary-of-terms. 

 

[brent75]

Update -- I have an American Express card, and happened to be combing through my AMEX Rewards section. They carry Sennheiser products, so I can actually get for "free" the 600 or 650. I think it makes more sense to get that and spend out of pocket for other stuff I may want (e.g. start looking for decent closed back or something).
 
I'm going to start reading about 600 vs 650 and see what I think I might prefer. I have a feeling it will be 650 based on what I've read so far, but we shall see...

 

[milosingh]

I'd take a HD 600 over a HD 650 and a HD 650 over everything else in your list.

HD 600
Ruler flat neutral and natural sound
Slightly more treble than HD 650
Slightly less bass
Acc to Headfi folks, slightly clearer

HD 650
Warmer, slightly less treble
Slightly more mid bass
A touch lusher mids
Acc to Headfi folks, slightly more resolving
Thicker sounding

I have only heard the HD 650 and I own them. If I had a choice I'd go with the HD 600 instead.

Either needs a good headphone amp.

Also get the Sonarworks plugin.

 

[jthom320]

If soundstage is important to you I wouldn't get the 600 or 650.  Imho the 598 does a better job at soundstage then either of them.
 
Really I don't think you can beat the X2's in the 300 dollar price range.  Even at your quoted price of 400 there isn't really anything I'd definitely take over them.  I've heard a good amount of headphones and they seriously impress.  
 
If 6XX series Sennheiser is your options though I'd personally get the 650.  Just make sure you are amping them as they scale really well with a headphone amp.  Schiit stack or an O2 combo would be perfectly adequate if you are not looking to spend a lot.  You mentioned the Micca Origen and that would be an ok option as well.

 

[brent75]

  If soundstage is important to you I wouldn't get the 600 or 650.  Imho the 598 does a better job at soundstage then either of them.
 
Really I don't think you can beat the X2's in the 300 dollar price range.  Even at your quoted price of 400 there isn't really anything I'd definitely take over them.  I've heard a good amount of headphones and they seriously impress.  
 
If 6XX series Sennheiser is your options though I'd personally get the 650.  Just make sure you are amping them as they scale really well with a headphone amp.  Schiit stack or an O2 combo would be perfectly adequate if you are not looking to spend a lot.  You mentioned the Micca Origen and that would be an ok option as well.

I could also use the rewards dollars to get the 598, and then have leftover money for something else. Thoughts on that?
 
I agree that the X2 sounds like the best bet (on paper). But the downside is (1) I have a financially much more attractive option in that I don't need to pay a dime to get some good alternatives in the Sennheisers, and (2) I can't sort through all the production quality/glue/true cost anywhere. I wish AMEX had Philips headphones in there so I could just get those.
 
The amp I plan on using at home/with these phones is the OPPO HA-2. I'll use the Micca at work on my desk.

 

[milosingh]

I have the HD 650 and HD 598.

The HD 650 when properly amped has almost as big a soundstage, but far more 3D and deeper, more realistic and coherent as well. Overall I prefer the HD 650 to Th HD 598 even where the soundstage is concerned even though HD 598 has a slightly wider soundstage (but the difference is badly exaggerated on Headfi).

The HD 650 is closer to the HD 800 than to the HD 598. And I have listened to all three.

However, the HD 800 is quite a bit better. The HD 650 lies somewhere in between, perhaps mid way through but a bit closer to the HD 800.

I never listen to the HD 598 if I am able to listen to the HD 650. Never. For no type of music. On no occasion. The HD 598 is only for portable use for me (I know it is open and j don't care).

There really isn't even a contest.

 

[fjrabon]

yeah, given your options, I'd definitely go with the HD650.  THat was my go-to main headphone for a few years before I got the HE400i.  
 
The Schiit Magni 2 uber is a good match for it amp wise.  If you can spare a bit more cash, the Schiit Lyr 2 is my favorite amp of all-time with the HD650.  And the Lyr 2 is more versatile.  Dac-wise I'd go for an ODAC or Schiit Magni 2.  (or Bifrost 4490 if it fits your budget, but it probably doesn't).  
 
So, my recs for the HD650 would be:
 
Good: O2/ODAC (gets you 90% of the way there)
Better: Schiit Magni2 Uber/Schiit Modi2 Uber (best overal value)
Best: Schiit Lyr2/Bifrost 4490 (best quality and most versatile)
 
Also feel free to mix and match the DAC/amps between those.  
 
Also, I always felt that the HD650 needed its cable upgraded.  Don't need to go crazy here, and it can wait.  But for whatever reason Sennheiser ships the HD650 with a cable that doesn't really let the headphone thrive.  And I almost never think upgrading cables makes a difference.  The HD600 and HD650 are the only exceptions that I have seen where a cable upgrade does make a clear, audible difference (though it is admittedly subtle, as everything in audio is).

 

[brent75]

  yeah, given your options, I'd definitely go with the HD650.  THat was my go-to main headphone for a few years before I got the HE400i.  
 
The Schiit Magni 2 uber is a good match for it amp wise.  If you can spare a bit more cash, the Schiit Lyr 2 is my favorite amp of all-time with the HD650.  And the Lyr 2 is more versatile.  Dac-wise I'd go for an ODAC or Schiit Magni 2.  (or Bifrost 4490 if it fits your budget, but it probably doesn't).  
 
So, my recs for the HD650 would be:
 
Good: O2/ODAC (gets you 90% of the way there)
Better: Schiit Magni2 Uber/Schiit Modi2 Uber (best overal value)
Best: Schiit Lyr2/Bifrost 4490 (best quality and most versatile)
 
Also feel free to mix and match the DAC/amps between those.  
 
Also, I always felt that the HD650 needed its cable upgraded.  Don't need to go crazy here, and it can wait.  But for whatever reason Sennheiser ships the HD650 with a cable that doesn't really let the headphone thrive.  And I almost never think upgrading cables makes a difference.  The HD600 and HD650 are the only exceptions that I have seen where a cable upgrade does make a clear, audible difference (though it is admittedly subtle, as everything in audio is).

Thanks for the great info! I will look into all of these.
 
A few questions:
 
1). I got the Micca Origen for my desk DAC, and I was thinking of getting the Oppo HA-2 for my "home + travel" DAC and headphone amp. Basically the thought being I'll use it on my couch when listening to open-back headphones, then take w/ me on planes for my closed-back pair. Do you think the Oppo will match up just fine w/ the 650s?
 
2). What brand/suggestions for replacement cables would you recommend?

 

[fjrabon]

 
Thanks for the great info! I will look into all of these.
 
A few questions:
 
1). I got the Micca Origen for my desk DAC, and I was thinking of getting the Oppo HA-2 for my "home + travel" DAC and headphone amp. Basically the thought being I'll use it on my couch when listening to open-back headphones, then take w/ me on planes for my closed-back pair. Do you think the Oppo will match up just fine w/ the 650s?
 
2). What brand/suggestions for replacement cables would you recommend?

1) I hesitate to say, because I have no personal experience with the HA-2.  I try to avoid giving advice on things I haven't heard when it comes to how well it will work with a given piece of gear.
 
2)These, to me, are all you really need for the HD650: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F2JG4P4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00 No need to go nuts with $300 aftermarket cables.

 

[jthom320]

 
I could also use the rewards dollars to get the 598, and then have leftover money for something else. Thoughts on that?
 
I agree that the X2 sounds like the best bet (on paper). But the downside is (1) I have a financially much more attractive option in that I don't need to pay a dime to get some good alternatives in the Sennheisers, and (2) I can't sort through all the production quality/glue/true cost anywhere. I wish AMEX had Philips headphones in there so I could just get those.
 
The amp I plan on using at home/with these phones is the OPPO HA-2. I'll use the Micca at work on my desk.

Fair enough.  650 is a great pair of headphones.  Better then the 598 even.  I just personally think the 598 goes wider and deeper.  I'd even call it more detailed but the 650 blows it away on mids and low end.  
 
I can't really give you advice on the HA-2 as I've never heard it.  I've yet to own a portable amp/dac but I've looked pretty hard at the Schiit Fulla based off some positive reviews I've seen.  Can't offer much there.