[Edwii]

Background: 
-I've owned the HD650 for about 3 years, with no AMP or DAC. 
-I use my PC as my input only.(Which can uncomfortably loud turned up enough)
-I listen mostly to movies, also video games and flac music. 
-I doubt I will ever upgrade past the HD650s unless they brake. 
-I doubt I will get into vinyl or any non digital audio. (not that it's not cool)    
-A rule I live by, buy something once rather than slowly upgrade over and over again.  
-If I get an amp, I will get a DAC, but not right away.
 
Part 1 
 
Being that I've never run a true amp before, and seeing as the motherboard is loud enough on it's own?:
-Will I really notice a difference running a good amp?
-How much of a difference and in what way? 
 
Part 2 
 
The amps I've been coming across: 
 
1. Bottlehead Crank  (Speedball?)
 
2. Schiit magni 2 / vali 
 
3. JDS Labs O2 / C5 
 
 
If I get an amp, I really want the Crack. I love the look. I hear fantastic things about it; out preforming much more expensive amps, being a perfect pair for the HD650. 
I see it as great value for it's price, but it's still the most costly of the lot.  (and yes I want to assemble it)
 
The other solid states seem good, but nothing remarkable in the bunch. 
 
a. Out of all the solid states which would recommend for the HD650? 
b. How much of a difference would there between any of the solid states vs the Crack?  
c. Am I gonna want to upgrade the Crack with the Speedball? (Considering I more listening to movies and games than I am music?)

 

[superjawes]

Welcome to Head-Fi sorry about your...wait, are you actually showing restraint?

My go-to headphones are the Sennheiser HD600's. The two are fairly similar, so anything that works for one should work well for the other. I have used my HD600 with a Magni (1), and it sounded "good." The only issue I ever found was an occasional "harshness," which was made more evident when using my Valhalla (1). Valhalla has been the better pairing all around, and it's really pretty. If you wanted an all-tube option, it's hard to go wrong with it.

Although as much as I like the Valhalla, I received my Magni 2 Uber yesterday, and it also sounds really good. I need some more time to get used to it and compare with the Valhalla, but this Uber stack is pretty potent.

I have not personally heard an O2 or ODAC, but that combo is widely recommended as an entry level setup along side the Magni/Modi stack. M/M has been described as "the only amp/DAC you ever need," and the Objectives seem to fall into that category as well.

Good luck and happy listening!

 

[Edwii]

Welcome to Head-Fi sorry about your...wait, are you actually showing restraint?

My go-to headphones are the Sennheiser HD600's. The two are fairly similar, so anything that works for one should work well for the other. I have used my HD600 with a Magni (1), and it sounded "good." The only issue I ever found was an occasional "harshness," which was made more evident when using my Valhalla (1). Valhalla has been the better pairing all around, and it's really pretty. If you wanted an all-tube option, it's hard to go wrong with it.

Although as much as I like the Valhalla, I received my Magni 2 Uber yesterday, and it also sounds really good. I need some more time to get used to it and compare with the Valhalla, but this Uber stack is pretty potent.

I have not personally heard an O2 or ODAC, but that combo is widely recommended as an entry level setup along side the Magni/Modi stack. M/M has been described as "the only amp/DAC you ever need," and the Objectives seem to fall into that category as well.

Good luck and happy listening!

Thanks for your reply. 
Can you explain your experience using the headphones with and with out amp? Like is it more than just louder, is it also better; and in what way?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

If you will only be using the PC as your source, then why not get a DAC-HPamp in one box? The only practical advantage of an amp is if it has multiple inputs, so you can hook up a DAC or CDP on one and maybe a TT on the other. A properly designed DAC-HPamp will have a power supply designed to cope with both sections; you can start with the more affordable AudioGDs, like the NFB-15 for under $300. The really expensive ones like the Burson Conductor has two power supplies, one each for the DAC and HPamp sections.

 

[Kiwikat]

 
Thanks for your reply. 
Can you explain your experience using the headphones with and with out amp? Like is it more than just louder, is it also better; and in what way?

I used my HD650's with a cheap FiiO E9 amp for a year.  It technically got the job done.  It provided enough power to make them loud enough, but it wasn't driving them to their full potential.  I upgraded to the Schiit Lyr (and Bifrost DAC) back then and I couldn't believe it, they sounded like completely different headphones.  The 650's in particular have the much talked about "Sennheiser veil" when not properly amped.  A good amp will make it sound like someone cleaned your ears out, like what was once between you and your headphones is no longer there.
 
I feel like my LCD-X are nearly useless un-amped.  They're plenty loud, but they're almost boring sounding.  The sound signature between my three different amps (and DACs) is very clear with them.  The portable FiiO E12 is a major improvement over nothing at all.  It starts to give the sound some impact and life, most noticeably on the low end.  The Magni improves on it quite a bit.  It really improves the overall soundstage and makes it a very enjoyable listening experience.  The Mjolnir takes them up yet another large notch.  The sound is so full, impactful, dynamic, and powerful.  You can tell that there's significant power behind the sound.

I can't speak to the Crack, but I know I thoroughly enjoyed my Lyr/Bifrost/HD650 combination.  The Lyr could kick the 650's butt, lol.  A more up-to-date and more affordable option would be the Schiit Asgard 2 (or Valhalla 2 if you want tubes) and Modi 2 Uber.  Almost anything you'd get would help elevate the 650s.  Many here say they're among the best scaling headphones there are.  Once you break through the veil, they're really impressive headphones.

 

[Edwii]

  If you will only be using the PC as your source, then why not get a DAC-HPamp in one box?

For me I live by the rule "buy something once that I don't need to upgrade" aka, I kinda go overkill with anything I get.  I see the advantages of of an all in one unit. A good acclaimed amp (like the Crack) will probably last me a life time(or till it brakes, which should be an easy repair lol). DACs on the other hand(and I'm only speculating) seem to be more prone to becoming antiquated as technology evolves.(not that we haven't enjoyed a long time standard for a while now).   The other half of it, is I feel like an all in one unit may have have good value on it's own, but not as good as quality as an individual component for the same price. I feel I will enjoy the amp upgrade for a time than save up for a DAC later on. I even think I can use my HT receiver connected to my PC as a DAC. 
 
I haven't paid much/any attention to powering an amp/dac, is it not as simple as plugin it into a wall/power bar?

 
I used my HD650's with a cheap FiiO E9 amp for a year.  It technically got the job done.  It provided enough power to make them loud enough, but it wasn't driving them to their full potential.  I upgraded to the Schiit Lyr (and Bifrost DAC) back then and I couldn't believe it, they sounded like completely different headphones.  The 650's in particular have the much talked about "Sennheiser veil" when not properly amped.  A good amp will make it sound like someone cleaned your ears out, like what was once between you and your headphones is no longer there.
 
I feel like my LCD-X are nearly useless un-amped.  They're plenty loud, but they're almost boring sounding.  The sound signature between my three different amps (and DACs) is very clear with them.  The portable FiiO E12 is a major improvement over nothing at all.  It starts to give the sound some impact and life, most noticeably on the low end.  The Magni improves on it quite a bit.  It really improves the overall soundstage and makes it a very enjoyable listening experience.  The Mjolnir takes them up yet another large notch.  The sound is so full, impactful, dynamic, and powerful.  You can tell that there's significant power behind the sound.

I can't speak to the Crack, but I know I thoroughly enjoyed my Lyr/Bifrost/HD650 combination.  The Lyr could kick the 650's butt, lol.  A more up-to-date and more affordable option would be the Schiit Asgard 2 (or Valhalla 2 if you want tubes) and Modi 2 Uber.  Almost anything you'd get would help elevate the 650s.  Many here say they're among the best scaling headphones there are.  Once you break through the veil, they're really impressive headphones.

 
I love a direct answer from a fellow HD650 owner. 
I've seen the word "veil" mentioned before but kinda dismissed it, now I understand what it refers to. 
Judging by your experience, if I do splurge on a Crack, I should be quite please with it as an upgrade to my system. I've been worried that upgrading to a dedicated amp wouldn't really make a huge difference, as they already sound better than anything I've ever owned.    
So I'll take it that you would advise me to get an appropriate amp, it will be worth the investment? 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
For me I live by the rule "buy something once that I don't need to upgrade" aka, I kinda go overkill with anything I get.  I see the advantages of of an all in one unit. A good acclaimed amp (like the Crack) will probably last me a life time(or till it brakes, which should be an easy repair lol). DACs on the other hand(and I'm only speculating) seem to be more prone to becoming antiquated as technology evolves.(not that we haven't enjoyed a long time standard for a while now).   The other half of it, is I feel like an all in one unit may have have good value on it's own, but not as good as quality as an individual component for the same price. I feel I will enjoy the amp upgrade for a time than save up for a DAC later on. I even think I can use my HT receiver connected to my PC as a DAC. 

 

DACs only become antiquated in terms of source unit and file format compatibility. Many of them by now can do 24/96 via USB, if not 24/192 (some people look for 24/88 for some reason), and most PCs won't have any issues with that, considering for example how mobo manufacturers have been paying attention to this (like how red motherboards claim consistent 5v and however much amperage through all USB ports in the rear; even MSI specifically states "USB DAC ready"). The rapid developments in the past eight years or so are slowing down in every respect save for DSD - this is because, for starters, USB was relatively new, and then high-res became more widely available (like with HDTracks, where more music is released in mastering resolution, as opposed to audiophile albums and test CDs before all that).

 

Note a few things though - the jury's still out on the benefits of high res. For the most part the recording quality is the real factor, the same way that for example the Guano Apes released SACDs before and I can't hear any improvements over the regular CDs. Then there's DSD - a lot of DACs and DAPs claim "compatibility," but in reality it's just doing the same tricks used by Pioneer's DV6xx series and their Philips counterpart, which is converting the DSD from SACDs into PCM, then running them through their PCM DACs. That's why those universal players, DAPs, and DACs all list a DAC with "24-bit, 192khz" when in reality DSD is "1-bit, 2,8xxkhz," and why Schiit made the Loki separate from the Modi and Bifrost. Then there are sources, but like I said, if you'll be using a full-size computer (unlike Androids and iOS devices), it won't really be an issue. In the end, past compatibility concerns, a neutral DAC is a neutral DAC. Minute differences have more to do with the analogue output circuit designs, and when the differences are huge in terms of the tonality, it's likely one of the DACs in the comparison has an analogue circuit that is deliberately coloring the sound.

 

As for the amp, well, these have a lot of power. if anything, monster DAC-HPamps like the Burson Conductor have two power supplies to run the DAC and amp sections independently, but the AudioGD specs don't show any serious performance issues from using only a single power supply. They do however have high end units that have huge power supply capacities - the NFB-10, 28, and 29 can still go up to 19v rms balanced output for the headphones.

 

 
 

 
I haven't paid much/any attention to powering an amp/dac, is it not as simple as plugin it into a wall/power bar?

 

Some rely on USB power, wholly (ie n oother power supply or battery) or partially (some require USB power for some chips in the digital stage, like for triggering the USB input by powering the USB receiver, if not the DAC also). AFAIK, the AudioGDs just need a clean USB port, plus an outlet (preferably on a power strip for protection).

 

[Edwii]

   

DACs only become antiquated in terms of source unit and file format compatibility. Many of them by now can do 24/96 via USB, if not 24/192 (some people look for 24/88 for some reason), and most PCs won't have any issues with that, considering for example how mobo manufacturers have been paying attention to this (like how red motherboards claim consistent 5v and however much amperage through all USB ports in the rear; even MSI specifically states "USB DAC ready"). The rapid developments in the past eight years or so are slowing down in every respect save for DSD - this is because, for starters, USB was relatively new, and then high-res became more widely available (like with HDTracks, where more music is released in mastering resolution, as opposed to audiophile albums and test CDs before all that).

 

Note a few things though - the jury's still out on the benefits of high res. For the most part the recording quality is the real factor, the same way that for example the Guano Apes released SACDs before and I can't hear any improvements over the regular CDs. Then there's DSD - a lot of DACs and DAPs claim "compatibility," but in reality it's just doing the same tricks used by Pioneer's DV6xx series and their Philips counterpart, which is converting the DSD from SACDs into PCM, then running them through their PCM DACs. That's why those universal players, DAPs, and DACs all list a DAC with "24-bit, 192khz" when in reality DSD is "1-bit, 2,8xxkhz," and why Schiit made the Loki separate from the Modi and Bifrost. Then there are sources, but like I said, if you'll be using a full-size computer (unlike Androids and iOS devices), it won't really be an issue. In the end, past compatibility concerns, a neutral DAC is a neutral DAC. Minute differences have more to do with the analogue output circuit designs, and when the differences are huge in terms of the tonality, it's likely one of the DACs in the comparison has an analogue circuit that is deliberately coloring the sound.

 

As for the amp, well, these have a lot of power. if anything, monster DAC-HPamps like the Burson Conductor have two power supplies to run the DAC and amp sections independently, but the AudioGD specs don't show any serious performance issues from using only a single power supply. They do however have high end units that have huge power supply capacities - the NFB-10, 28, and 29 can still go up to 19v rms balanced output for the headphones.

 

 
 
 

Some rely on USB power, wholly (ie n oother power supply or battery) or partially (some require USB power for some chips in the digital stage, like for triggering the USB input by powering the USB receiver, if not the DAC also). AFAIK, the AudioGDs just need a clean USB port, plus an outlet (preferably on a power strip for protection).

A lot of what you are saying is going over my head to be honest. As I may of noted, I'm not super techincaly advsers in this world. I started in car audio, so I have some basics, but not this more advanced stuff. 
 

I am very new in the world of headphone amps or dacs, I don't know brands or models very well. 
My budget for an amp is in the $300-$400 mark, and only if it's really worth my while.  I may grab a dac later on, and spend between $100-$200 on it after that.  
In other words $600max for the rest of my setup, and not budgeted all at once.  And I doubt I would ever upgrade after that unless 1. something fails beyond repair or 2. ground braking technology changes the game. 
I've googled a few of the products you mentioned and they are well over my budget. 
 
I generally go with products that are well reviewed and popular, as they usually are less troublesome that less known products. 
Which is why current runners up are: 
Schiit: magni 2 / modi 2  or maybe up to a Valhalla  
JDS O2 or C5  / odac 
Bottlehead Crack + one of the above dacs.  Not sure if I should get the speedball upgrade? 
 
thoughts, input?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  A lot of what you are saying is going over my head to be honest. As I may of noted, I'm not super techincaly advsers in this world. I started in car audio, so I have some basics, but not this more advanced stuff. 

 

What I was saying was that the fast developments you've seen in DACs in recent years has a lot less to do with the actual sound output in terms of what makes a good DAC (neutral response), but the input protocols. USB audio came out around a decade ago, it kinda sucked, lots of new development that by now it can handle 24bit/96khz(and up) sampling rates (if not also bit depth) as well as DSD (SACD without a CD, basically); also some work with Androids and iOS devics. If you look at the development of USB audio and the lot of DAC units that were rendered "obsolete" in the past decade it was due to USB catching up to SPDIF. All the newer developments are slowing down by now. A future proof DAC then is one with a neutral sound but can keep up with the developments in input systems, hence Schiit sells the Bifrost with a modular USB section for example (or get a Modi, and maybe a Loki also - at least they can be had for a lot less).

 

Also that as far as high res audio is concerned, for the most part it's the recording quality and not the bit depth (16bit, 18bit, 20bit, 24bit. 32bit; 1bit for DSD) or sampling rate (44.1khz, 88khz, 96khz, 19khz; 2,800Mhz for DSD).
 
 
 
 

 
I've googled a few of the products you mentioned and they are well over my budget. 

 
I only listed those because I was covering all the considerations for performance of DAC-HPamps. Like I said, if the concern was to have a lot of power, or to have one with dual PSUs (one for the DAC section, one for the amp), then there are products that function well even if you have both in the same chassis.