[JayG]

I am still searching for ideal classical music cans, and while I like the 'phones I have for many things, I still feel like I am missing something. I know one pair of headphones can never be perfect for all kinds of classical, and all kinds of recordings, so I guess the most accurate way to phrase my question is: Which of the following do you feel would add the most to my current stable of cans (in my sig)?

As a reference, I am most looking for a natural sound, and I tend to prefer headphones with flatter responses. Instrumental timbre is paramount to me. In general, I prefer open cans, but I am receptive to good closed cans, especially since I don't really have any experience with high-quality closed offerings aside from my PRO900.

ATH-AD2000s

Why I'm interested: By far the flattest response of any A-T offerings according to response curves I've seen. Open. Seem to be mid-centric, which is good compared to the ever-present U-shaped curve of most headphones here. Supposed to have little to no fit problems compared to W5000.

What I'm concerned about: Said to still have some of the typical A-T mids coloration. Treble response seems very uneven according to graphs, making me worry that critical acoustic overtones won't be reproduced properly, further exacerbating any timbre problems caused by mid bumb.

ATH-W5000s

Why I'm interested: Said to be great for acoustic music. Love the beautiful wood, authentic leather pads, nice packaging etc. Interested in owning a high quality closed can

What I'm concerned about: Fit issues. Very unnatural timbre. This seems like a can that nobody can agree on. Some say it's extremely strange sounding and ruins instrument tone, while others say that with a proper fit it nails acoustic music. All frequency response curves I've seen for it aren't even close to neutral, but once again I don't know how much of that has to do with fit.

Grado RS-1s

Why I'm interested: Legendary headphones. Also, I have a love-hate relationship with my GS1000s. I swear they have some kind of magic dust in them, because with some music, and on some recordings, they are simply breathtaking and blow me away. Solo piano, unaccompanied vocal music etc. However, I am very aware that they have an outrageously un-neutral response curve, and in a lot of music, they just sound ridiculous because of the very sucked out mids. The treble energy is just too much, also. But the bass is fantastic, they are crystal clear, and most importantly, they have the ability from time to time to just sound so real despite the skewed response. These phones, with a flat response, would destroy everything else I've heard. This makes me very curious about the RS-1s. I know the response still is pretty far from flat, but the mids aren't nearly as sucked out if graphs and impressions are to be believed, and they could give me a lot of what I'm looking for.

What I'm concerned about: Comfort and loss of soundstage first of all. I'm spoiled that the first Grados I have owned are the GS1000s. But I can live with these concerns if the sound gives me what I want. Soundstage is not a top concern for me because I am never satisfied with headphones in that department anyway. But I would like to know if they share the far-too-piercing highs of the GS1000s, and if the mids are more natural and un-sucked-out. Also, I think people over the years have just totally taken these out of consideration when looking for classical cans, which according to my experience with the GS1000s would be a mistake.

Beyerdynamic DT48E

Why I'm interested: Well, just read the DT48 threads. People have said how incredibly natural and scary-life-like these phones are, especially for anything acoustic, and especially for classical. They have a ruler-flat response through much of the spectrum, and were designed to sound that way. So they would seem to be exactly what I'm looking for. However...

What I'm concerned about: They reportedly are extremely uncomfortable and sound quite claustrophobic. I already don't like the closed-in feeling of my PRO900s, which is worse in that respect than other, larger closed cans I've tried, and I think it has to do with the small size of the cups. The DT48s also have small cups, so I worry that I will have the same problem. Also, many say they don't do as well with larger scale classical, and I already have some phones that I feel excel at chamber music, especially the GS1000s. But most importantly, some say they just don't hear the magic and can't understand how others could find them comparable to headphones like the others in this list. Also, I can't decide which version would be best for me. Consensus seems to be that the 25-Ohm generally sound the best, but with my OTL Woo Audio 2, reason tells me that the 200-Ohm versions would be a better match.

Denon D7000s

Why I'm interested: These seem to be the FOTY here. If you listen to their advocates, they have powerful, yet refined subterranean bass, natural mids, and sweet clear highs. They are also said to be pretty open sounding for a closed can. They look nice, and are said to be very comfortable.

What I'm concerned about: These seem to be the FOTY here. The almost unanimous praise makes me nervous, especially since the few people who have said they don't care for them make it sound like it didn't take long to put them on a decide they were overhyped and suffer from most of the same problems that lower Denons do. The response curve would seem to indicate that they are a little muffled-sounding like the HD650s, with the gently downward sloping response from bass to treble. Also, as much as I love nice bass (highly underrated in classical music as it serves as the harmonic foundation for everything else), I don't want the bass to overpower the rest (a problem the PRO900 has somtimes and not others). Also, I've already got enough problems with sucked-out midrange, so I don't want any more phones with that issue. Build quality also seems sloppy to me. Disappointing in an expensive, flagship phone.


Hopefully I've given you enough information to explain what I like and what I'm looking for. All of my current equipment is listed in my signature. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to provide any information that would help you make a recommendation to me.

Also, I have read pretty much every threat that even tangentially relates to this topic, so don't be concerned that I haven't already searched.

Thanks everyone!

 

[AmanGeorge]

Unfortunately, I haven't heard any of the headphones on your list, but from my own experience I wonder how much room for improvement there is on the K702 that you already have when it comes to classical music and accurately capturing instrumental timbre.

 

[ting.mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayG /img/forum/go_quote.gif Grado RS-1s Why I'm interested: Legendary headphones. Also, I have a love-hate relationship with my GS1000s. I swear they have some kind of magic dust in them, because with some music, and on some recordings, they are simply breathtaking and blow me away. Solo piano, unaccompanied vocal music etc. However, I am very aware that they have an outrageously un-neutral response curve, and in a lot of music, they just sound ridiculous because of the very sucked out mids. The treble energy is just too much, also. But the bass is fantastic, they are crystal clear, and most importantly, they have the ability from time to time to just sound so real despite the skewed response. These phones, with a flat response, would destroy everything else I've heard. This makes me very curious about the RS-1s. I know the response still is pretty far from flat, but the mids aren't nearly as sucked out if graphs and impressions are to be believed, and they could give me a lot of what I'm looking for. What I'm concerned about: Comfort and loss of soundstage first of all. I'm spoiled that the first Grados I have owned are the GS1000s. But I can live with these concerns if the sound gives me what I want. Soundstage is not a top concern for me because I am never satisfied with headphones in that department anyway. But I would like to know if they share the far-too-piercing highs of the GS1000s, and if the mids are more natural and un-sucked-out. Also, I think people over the years have just totally taken these out of consideration when looking for classical cans, which according to my experience with the GS1000s would be a mistake. Thanks everyone!

The GS1000i is the most perfect classical cans I've ever heard. The best for string quartets. Superb for Symphonies, and just about all forms of classical music.

I actually doesn't prefer an RS1 for classical, as its very forward mids gets in the way of the highs and the lows on a lot of recordings. I use the MSPRO, which sounds identical to RS1, except for the slightly less forward mids, and I wish its presentation was like a GS1000i.

-edit-
oh, and the GS1000i kills both the RS1 and MSPRO in transparency, detail, separation, speed, and dynamics. I also think the GS1000i's more neutral timbre is nicer than the RS1/MSPRO which can sound too analog/warm at times.

 

[mrarroyo]

Wait until you receive the K501 and burn them in for about 200 hours. You may not want another can (except the RS-1)!

 

[ting.mike]

weird, am I the only one who feels the K501 is a bit overrated around here.. I listen to 98% classical, yet my K501 almost never gets used.

K501's big soundstage is nice, but it's "average" in almost everything else. Yes it's a great headphone, for the price that is.

 

[K3cT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ting.mike /img/forum/go_quote.gif weird, am I the only one who feels the K501 is a bit overrated around here.. I listen to 98% classical, yet my K501 almost never gets used. K501's big soundstage is nice, but it's "average" in almost everything else. Yes it's a great headphone, for the price that is.

Seconding this statement. I felt it was a bit too 'light' too. I dunno how to put it in words, lack of texture/weight perhaps?

Very good for the price though.

 

[padam]

You should go to a meet and try a Stax.

 

[JayG]

Yes, I am excited to receive the K501s and try them for myself. I have been interested in them for years since they have such a reputation around here for classical, and I will be be happy to see for myself. Also, as has been said, they are very affordable, so if I love them, they'll be a real bargain, if not, I can easily resell them or keep them for a pretty small loss.

ting.mike: Like I said, The GS1000 does a lot right, and has a lot of strengths when it comes to classical music. But it's a fact it has a canyon shaped frequency response. I don't know how you can say they are neutral. Because of this, with many recordings (mostly full orchestral), the timbre is very off, with thin mids and piercing highs. They are superb for chamber music, string quartet, small-scale vocal music, but to me, they are not well suited to symphonic music because the full orchestra uses the entire frequency spectrum all at once and clearly reveals the GS1000s' weird response curve. It's a shame too, because the soundstage, clarity, and imaging can do wonders for symphonic music, but the sucked out mids usually kill it for me.

AmanGeorge: I like my K702s very much, and they are one of my most-used cans. I think that even people who don't care for them are willing to admit that they beat most other phones on the market as far as presenting a neutral sound. However, they have a couple big issues that prevent me from considering them as ideal. First, the bass is too recessed. It just is. Yes, it's tight, and tuneful, and natural, and textured, and extended, but it needs about 3 more dB in relation to the mids and highs. The other problem is the strange upper-mid response that causes strings instruments especially to sound slightly nasal. I don't think it's as extreme as some others do, but it is there, and if you listen to them in comparison the the DT880s, which have a closer overall signature to the K702s than anything else I have, you can clearly hear it. If these two problems weren't present, the K702s, in my opinion, would be incredible.

 

[JayG]

padam - I think you're right, and I hope to be able to do that soon. I do worry that it will send me down another long and expensive road, though. I definitely have no resistance to electrostats if I find them superior and can swing a pair and amp that satisfy me. I just haven't had that experience yet. And it also doesn't change the fact that I think there is more to be had from dynamics.

 

[XXII]

About the W5000, I completely disagree with the unnatural tone part. Also, the best feature of the W5000 with respect to classical is its fantastic imaging. You can really pinpoint the exact position in space of each set of instruments in the orchestra. The imaging of the W5000 is, for example, far better than that of the GS-1000.

 

[padam]

About getting into electrostats: If you have a decent speaker amp, you might be able to snatch a used normal bias adapter and an SR-Lambda normal bias combo in good condition which is a really nice entry to the stat world and doesn't cost more than your average dynamic headphone.

 

[jsaliga]

Jay,

I have a Woo 2 as well, currently using NOS Tung Sol 5998s, Tung Sol 6X4, and Valvo ECC88.

I think your take on the Grado GS-1000 matches my own, though I tend to characterize the bass as forward. In my limited experience with them so far, their performance depends to a great extent on the source recording. I agree that this can be said of any headphone or speaker, but the GS-1000 seems to be particularly sensitive to it. On the one hand, my 45RPM Analogue Productions LP of Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers Moanin' was simply spectacular on the Grados. But on the other, most of the Miles Davis recordings on Prestige (Relaxin', Workin', Steamin', etc.) sounded horrible. My head felt like it was sandwiched between the Double Bass and the Bass Drum, while the piano, sax, and trumpet were in another room. I have plenty of classical music on hand but haven't had time to try the GS-1000s with any of it yet.

The Audio Technica ATH-W5000 are a very nice headphone overall, but as you noted fit is a real problem for many owners. While the these headphones have a distinctive look, I wish Audio Technica would ditch this poor design and come up with something equally alluring that provided a good fit for the majority of owners without them having to mangle the headband. If you have a large, rotund, head then the W5000s will fit well out of the box. For anyone else it's a challenge. It is also worthwhile noting, since you also own a Woo 2, that the W5000 can be sibilant at higer sound levels -- at least on my amp. These cans have high sensitivity as well, so you do not have to travel very far up the volume knob to get loud music. It took me a little time to find the right volume setting so that the phones were loud enough to be enjoyable without being shouty. With all that being said, once you do strike the right balance of volume and fit the W5000 can provide a wonderous listening experience. I have never heard strings, brass, and woodwinds sound better on any headphone I have owned. The bass has enough presence to please me for the most part, though I do wish it was delivered with a little more authority. While I haven't heard everything out there, I have owned Senn HD650s, Grado RS-1s, AKG K701, and Denon AH-D7000s. The ATs are easily my favorite with acoustic music. Right now I am listening a Karajan and BPH recording of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony on Deutsche Grammophon SACD and am enjoying it considerably.

The Denon AH-D7000. I cannot find anything good to say about these headphones. I know they have a following and a lot of people like them. But they flat out sounded horrible with my Woo 2. Very dark, very closed in and claustrophobic. If dead, muffled, sounding thuds is your idea of bass then it could be said that the bass response is good on the D7000. But other than that they sucked the life and energy right out of the music. Is it a phone - amp synergy problem? Maybe, but I wasn't about to shell out $$$ for another amp just to find out. I sold the D7000s less than a week after taking delivery. The person who bought them from me thought they were fantastic, and I am very happy for him.

--Jerome

 

[XXII]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Audio Technica ATH-W5000 are a very nice headphone overall, but as you noted fit is a real problem for many owners. While the these headphones have a distinctive look, I wish Audio Technica would ditch this poor design and come up with something equally alluring that provided a good fit for the majority of owners without them having to mangle the headband. If you have a large, rotund, head then the W5000s will fit well out of the box. For anyone else it's a challenge. It is also worthwhile noting, since you also own a Woo 2, that the W5000 can be sibilant higer sound levels -- at least on my amp. These cans have high sensitivity as well, so you do not have to travel very far up the volume knob to get loud music. It took me a little time to find the right volume setting so that the phones were loud enough to be enjoyable without being shouty. With all that being said, once you do strike the right balance of volume and fit the W5000 can provide a wonderous listening experience. I have never heard strings, brass, and woodwinds sound better on any headphone I have owned. The bass has enough presence to please me for the most part, though I do wish it was delivered with a little more authority. While I haven't heard everything out there, I have owned Senn HD650s, Grado RS-1s, AKG K701, and Denon AH-D7000s. The ATs are easily my favorite with acoustic music. Right now I am listening a Karajan and BPH recording of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony on Deutsche Grammophon SACD and am enjoying it considerably.

I agree with almost everything you said except the part about fit. IMO, the issue is that you cannot adjust the vertical tilt of the cups so the sides of your head need to slope at the right angle so the cups fit flush. You don't need a large head IMO, just a round head. People with long heads would have fit issues.

 

[jsaliga]

Perhaps, but the fit issues with the W5000 are very well documented on Head-Fi. I like the idea of having the adjustment you mentioned. If AT would take note it would be a help.

I don't want to make too big of a deal out it. I simply put a bend in the headband to get a good fit. Some people might be appalled at that, but reversing it is pretty easy to do and I am not the least bit concerned about aesthetics. I knew the first time I heard the W5000s that they had qualities that I liked. If I could urge AT to change anything, it would be to deal with the tendency towards sibilance at higher volumes. I'm not listening to Beethoven at ear-bleed levels mind you, but I just had to get up to turn it down a shade during the fourth movement of the fifth symphony. This is my ownly real serious gripe with the W5000. But most of the time I have a lot of love for these phones.

--Jerome

 

[boozcool]

I demoed the AD2000, W5000, and D7000 while listening to classical music (Bach and Mozart), and the D7000 was incredible. I liked the soundstage of the AD2000, but the D7000 was soooo smooth, detailed, and really pulled you into the music. I found the D7000s to take the Denon signature of D2000 and D5000, and improve on their shortcomings (recessed mids and slight harshness in the highs)
I also demoed the Stax SR-007, and if money is not object, then IMO, you would be hard pressed to find a better pair of headphones for classical music