[Dark Ayla]

Hi,
 
So what does musical DAC mean? what about flat DAC?
 
I know that musical DAC is referring to a DAC with warm and inviting sound signature and the flat is honest and natural with no colour at all. BUT does this even exist?!!

DAC is converting 0 1 to electric analog signal, so all it does is converting a specific value from a specific format to another format, DONE! 
 
1- How come some DACs add colour or musicality?
2- Why some people prefer musical DAC?
3- Shouldn't they leave the colouring/warmth task to the the Amp OR headphones?
 
 
If the DAC is adding warmth, the tube amp is adding warmth and the headphones sound signature  is missing with the music as well, so what is left is a missed up music that has nothing to do with the real record. 

 

[billybob_jcv]

It means someone has been reading reviews at Moon Audio...

 

[ubs28]

  Hi,
 
So what does musical DAC mean? what about flat DAC?
 
I know that musical DAC is referring to a DAC with warm and inviting sound signature and the flat is honest and natural with no colour at all. BUT does this even exist?!!

DAC is converting 0 1 to electric analog signal, so all it does is converting a specific value from a specific format to another format, DONE! 
 
1- How come some DACs add colour or musicality?
2- Why some people prefer musical DAC?
3- Shouldn't they leave the colouring/warmth task to the the Amp OR headphones?
 
 
If the DAC is adding warmth, the tube amp is adding warmth and the headphones sound signature  is missing with the music as well, so what is left is a missed up music that has nothing to do with the real record. 

 
I'm not an expert on this matter, but I believe DAC's use filters to reconstruct the signal. And this could be the cause of the problems since it's very hard to approximate the theoretical ideal filter. 

 

[Solrighal]

It's a very good question and one I'd like an answer to as well. You'd think it was just 1's & 0's but like you I read all these comments about warm DAC's and it makes me wonder. I'm currently using an ODAC and have been reading that it's regarded (by some) as being somewhat cold & clinical. I have no idea what to upgrade to and in fact if upgrading is possible at all in the world of DAC's.

 

[Dark Ayla]

It's a very good question and one I'd like an answer to as well. You'd think it was just 1's & 0's but like you I read all these comments about warm DAC's and it makes me wonder. I'm currently using an ODAC and have been reading that it's regarded (by some) as being somewhat cold & clinical. I have no idea what to upgrade to and in fact if upgrading is possible at all in the world of DAC's.

I am using Oppo HA1 and I understand what do they mean by "clinical" and "harsh". BUT is this because the amp used in HA1 or its DAC which is "ESS 9018 Sabre" .
If you want to upgrade or "move to different" sound signature because the word upgrade means that warm is better compared to clinical, try Arcam R-DAC (discontinued) or Arcam IR-DAC. 
I didn't try them, but this what I keep reading across the forums. 

 

[Solrighal]

Yeah, I've read the same. I've got the chance of a V-DAC 2 at an unbeatable price though so I'll most likely go for that and see what that brings. It's a move from the Sabre to Burr-Brown so in theory there should be some differences.

 

[davidsh]

You could do some reading on sound science sub-forum.

 

[Solrighal]

You could do some reading on sound science sub-forum.

I have but I'm none the wiser.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I know that musical DAC is referring to a DAC with warm and inviting sound signature and the flat is honest and natural with no colour at all. BUT does this even exist?!!

DAC is converting 0 1 to electric analog signal, so all it does is converting a specific value from a specific format to another format, DONE! 
 
1- How come some DACs add colour or musicality?

 

It's not the DAC chip itself that does that, but the analog stage after the DAC chip. You can hook up a DAC chip to any kind of circuit using any kind of components - SS with discrete ICs, SS with op-amps or HDAMs, tubes, in some cases just a capacitor. Any type of component can be made to sound a certain way; with those that come with tubes or op-amp/HDAMs the user can roll them and get whatever flavor they want.
 

This is one of the arguments for Direct Digital DAC+amplifier topologies by the way - you basically skip a lot of the analogue circuits like the output stage on the DAC, the input stage and analogue pot on the amp, etc - you basically (but it's a bit more complex than that) have the DAC chip feeding the amplifier output stage directly. You get as pure a signal out of the DAC and get it to the speakers with barely any analogue circuits. If anything, the thing with these amps is that the manufacturers use Class D amps to keep them compact (since they don't need large heatsinks), and for all the minimal analogue idea you get an amp that makes for example 15watts but already at 0.07% distortion. I'm not keeping tabs with speaker amps as much but I think NAD is one of the few companies that did this with a more powerful Class D amp (not sure either how much power it makes at 0.001% THD though). In practice though that's all just nitpicking with sheer numbers - as long as you use a reasonably efficient speaker that can get loud enough in your presumably quiet listening room with only 10watts then you don't really need any more power.
 

 
2- Why some people prefer musical DAC?

 

The same way that, after I say that the problem with TTs is that they sound like Snap, Crackle, and Pop jumped off my breakfast and into my sound system, the same people who have a bias for "musical" sources will repeat quotes like, "life has surface noise."
 
 

  3- Shouldn't they leave the colouring/warmth task to the the Amp OR headphones?. 

 

Actually it should just be the headphone or speaker. An amp is an amplifier, not a colorifier or warmifier - it should amplify the signal with the lowest possible total harmonic distortion. Coloring the sound means it has more THD intentionally added (it's just sometimes it's the kind of harmonic distortion that people find pleasing, like tubes), and technically speaking, even unintentional distortion has to be avoided. However, the problem then is 1) what the transducers you're hooking up needs, and 2) whether the amp can be designed to deliver that much power given considerations like cost/price, efficiency (Class A has lowest distortion, but good luck with the heat) and size, particularly with the size of the heatsinks (if you look at a Pass Labs First Watt for example the PCB is actually smaller than most class A/B amps with feedback, but the chassis are HUGE in order to increase surface area on the heatsinks). Also, larger heatsinks can drive up the cost of the chassis, shipping (to dealers), etc. 

Also the only reason really why we accept that speakers or headphones color the sound is because there is no such thing as a transducer or combination of transducers that have a perfectly flat response. 

 

[Dark Ayla]

It's not the DAC chip itself that does that, but the analog stage after the DAC chip. You can hook up a DAC chip to any kind of circuit using any kind of components - SS with discrete ICs, SS with op-amps or HDAMs, tubes, in some cases just a capacitor. Any type of component can be made to sound a certain way; with those that come with tubes or op-amp/HDAMs the user can roll them and get whatever flavor they want.

This is one of the arguments for Direct Digital DAC+amplifier topologies by the way - you basically skip a lot of the analogue circuits like the output stage on the DAC, the input stage and analogue pot on the amp, etc - you basically (but it's a bit more complex than that) have the DAC chip feeding the amplifier output stage directly. You get as pure a signal out of the DAC and get it to the speakers with barely any analogue circuits. If anything, the thing with these amps is that the manufacturers use Class D amps to keep them compact (since they don't need large heatsinks), and for all the minimal analogue idea you get an amp that makes for example 15watts but already at 0.07% distortion. I'm not keeping tabs with speaker amps as much but I think NAD is one of the few companies that did this with a more powerful Class D amp (not sure either how much power it makes at 0.001% THD though). In practice though that's all just nitpicking with sheer numbers - as long as you use a reasonably efficient speaker that can get loud enough in your presumably quiet listening room with only 10watts then you don't really need any more power.


The same way that, after I say that the problem with TTs is that they sound like Snap, Crackle, and Pop jumped off my breakfast and into my sound system, the same people who have a bias for "musical" sources will repeat quotes like, "life has surface noise."



Actually it should just be the headphone or speaker. An amp is an amplifier, not a colorifier or warmifier - it should amplify the signal with the lowest possible total harmonic distortion. Coloring the sound means it has more THD intentionally added (it's just sometimes it's the kind of harmonic distortion that people find pleasing, like tubes), and technically speaking, even unintentional distortion has to be avoided. However, the problem then is 1) what the transducers you're hooking up needs, and 2) whether the amp can be designed to deliver that much power given considerations like cost/price, efficiency (Class A has lowest distortion, but good luck with the heat) and size, particularly with the size of the heatsinks (if you look at a Pass Labs First Watt for example the PCB is actually smaller than most class A/B amps with feedback, but the chassis are HUGE in order to increase surface area on the heatsinks). Also, larger heatsinks can drive up the cost of the chassis, shipping (to dealers), etc. 


Also the only reason really why we accept that speakers or headphones color the sound is because there is no such thing as a transducer or combination of transducers that have a perfectly flat response. 

Thank you dude!

So I assume that u support my approach that "the colourification better to be done by headphones ONLY".

I also assume that tube amps are acting as wormafier not just amplifier.

 

[davidsh]

Do you want your gear to color your sound? If not, it is very simple. Just get a transparent setup.

 

[Solrighal]

With the ODAC & O2 I had a transparent set-up. I've added a Project Ember and now I have a musical setup. I prefer the musical set-up.

 

[Godsson]

please explain the differences objectively.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So I assume that u support my approach that "the colourification better to be done by headphones ONLY".

 

And speakers - like I said, it's more along the lines of "given current technology we don't really have a choice." And with speakers more than headphones room modes are just as important (fit, earpad wear, etc don't affect the sound as badly as a bad room) - a lot of people blow too much money on speakers when the problem is their room. Speakers are too close to the walls, or have too many drivers when they can't sit far enough, etc.
 

I also assume that tube amps are acting as wormafier not just amplifier.

 

That depends - some tube amps measure well with barely any of the harmonic distortion that people deliberately introduce into tube amps. At that point you might ask, why use tubes then, especially if you might receive the amp and then have to install them yourself? (theyre packed that way for many amps to keep them from breaking in transit)

 

Well, it depends on other factors, one of them being reliability, or more accurately, relative serviceability. The common misconception is that SS chips and ICs last longer or are easier to service - which is true if you're handy with a soldering iron and can diagnose them (and such parts are easily accessible in your country); I've had SS components fail on me with less life on them than any of the tubes I've owned (I still use SS though). Tubes might be relatively rare but all you need is to pull them out and try them on a tube tester to see if any of them needs replacing, then you can order the tubes you need if they do (well, assuming you're using an all-tube amp anyway).

 

[Solrighal]

  please explain the differences objectively.

 
Are you asking me? That's not so easy to do. I think the level of detail I hear with the Ember as opposed to the O2 is pretty much exactly the same. However, I do perceive it differently. It's as if the same details that the O2 delivers have been thrown in the air and landed somewhat differently. It's sometimes subtle & sometimes not. One percussive element that was previously in the foreground but is now further down in the mix, replaced with something that wasn't previously noticeable. Things aren't quite so harsh on lesser quality recordings.
 
That's subjective & I can fully appreciate why someone would think the exact opposite but for me & my music this combination allows more musical enjoyment. There are no doubt better combinations out there and there are certainly worse but what I have now is giving me the best sound I've ever heard. That has to be good enough for now.