[buonassi]

For me the only reason to deal with MQA is Tidal: It's either 44/16 or MQA. And I've generally found the MQA albums to sound better, as long as it's good recordings. It's not by a huge margin, but just a tad more defined.

I believe this is because Tidal is doing something to their files during the encoding process that adds a layer of DSP into the mix - or just a piss poor FLAC encoding process period. I've done tests on Tidal streams, Qobuz Streams, and CD Rips to FLAC level 7 compression (same albums at 44/16). Tidal was inferior in every example. There's always a slight warmth/bloom to the tidal tracks with less defined treble layering, less pristine somehow.

I almost wonder if this was done on purpose so that MQA would sound immediately better to the average subscriber? Or perhaps they're not allowed to apply the Tidal 'house curve' via DSP, so it sounds less bloomy?

ps. apple has something similar going on as tracks on apple music all have this extra 'something' to make them sizzle a bit more (some sort of compression almost).

 

[Dannemand]

I believe this is because Tidal is doing something to their files during the encoding process that adds a layer of DSP into the mix - or just a piss poor FLAC encoding process period. I've done tests on Tidal streams, Qobuz Streams, and CD Rips to FLAC level 7 compression (same albums at 44/16). Tidal was inferior in every example. There's always a slight warmth/bloom to the tidal tracks with less defined treble layering, less pristine somehow.

I almost wonder if this was done on purpose so that MQA would sound immediately better to the average subscriber? Or perhaps they're not allowed to apply the Tidal 'house curve' via DSP, so it sounds less bloomy?

ps. apple has something similar going on as tracks on apple music all have this extra 'something' to make them sizzle a bit more (some sort of compression almost).

I have a hard time believing that Tidal would perform its own tonal adjustment on the encodes they receive from the labels -- particularly with them being "the artist owned and managed" streaming service. I wonder if it would even be legal for them to do in relation to their contracts.

I haven't tried Qobuz myself. But given your report here, I am tempted to compare some of the recordings I own on CD to the same tracks on Tidal. I never bothered to do that before.

When I first tried Tidal, I noticed that some or the tracks I had found on Spotify with bad errors were exactly the same on Tidal (despite their different encodings) which leads me to believe that they don't do much processing (or even review) of the music they receive from the labels.

 

[audsl8]

Hi,

I have an LG v30 with Oreo and with the version where I can enable/disable DSP. I have some FLAC files of 44.1/16 44.1/24 96/24 192/24 etc

Based on the first post, only 3 apps can actually take all the advantages of the DAC.

I use EZ Folder Player Free and Foldplay. I tried the evaluation version of "Neutron" and "UAPP" and I can't find any difference (yes, I have Quad DAC enabled) between those two and the one I use (and a couple more).

Using logcat I see that sometimes the sample rate changes from 48 to 96 and vice versa depending on the app ( that happens not only with "the big three" but also with "Foldplay"), for example using "Foldplay" with a 96/24 file, I see:

/audio_hw_lge(806): lge_get_max_samplerate_for_current_backend sample rate = 96000 backend = 7 mqa_enable = 0, active_mqa_offload = 0

And still I can hear no difference at all when using an app that doesn't change the sample rate to 96k but keeps it to 48k.

 

[Dannemand]

Hi,

I have an LG v30 with Oreo and with the version where I can enable/disable DSP. I have some FLAC files of 44.1/16 44.1/24 96/24 192/24 etc

Based on the first post, only 3 apps can actually take all the advantages of the DAC.

I use EZ Folder Player Free and Foldplay. I tried the evaluation version of "Neutron" and "UAPP" and I can't find any difference (yes, I have Quad DAC enabled) between those two and the one I use (and a couple more).

Using logcat I see that sometimes the sample rate changes from 48 to 96 and vice versa depending on the app ( that happens not only with "the big three" but also with "Foldplay"), for example using "Foldplay" with a 96/24 file, I see:

/audio_hw_lge(806): lge_get_max_samplerate_for_current_backend sample rate = 96000 backend = 7 mqa_enable = 0, active_mqa_offload = 0

And still I can hear no difference at all when using an app that doesn't change the sample rate to 96k but keeps it to 48k.

First of all, you need to disable all DSP, EQ and other effects in order for this to matter. If you're not playing bit-perfect, no need to worry about re-sampling.

Second, almost any app will play your HiRes files correctly (anything 24-bit or anything >=48KHz). This only matters on 44/16 files.

The way I verify how it is being played is by inspecting the audio_flinger dump as described towards the bottom of this UAPP support page: You're looking for an Output thread similar to the spoiler below (playing 44/16 from UAPP, which converts it on the fly to 44/24). (Note that the lqadummy effect is one triggered by UAPP, even when playing regular non-MQA 44/16 files because the MQA flag is enabled in settings. The UAPP dev says that's according to MQA recommendations to always keep that flag on, although I personally disagree).

Spoiler: UAPP playing Redbook 44/16 on V30 - notice bold

Output thread 0xf05fa000, name AudioOut_19D, tid 6997, type 1 (DIRECT):
I/O handle: 413
Standby: no
Sample rate: 44100 Hz
HAL frame count: 1792
HAL format: 0x6 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_24_BIT_PACKED)
HAL buffer size: 10752 bytes
Channel count: 2
Channel mask: 0x00000003 (front-left, front-right)
Processing format: 0x6 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_24_BIT_PACKED)
Processing frame size: 6 bytes
Pending config events: none
Output device: 0x8 (AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_WIRED_HEADPHONE)
Input device: 0 (AUDIO_DEVICE_NONE)
Audio source: 0 (default)
Normal frame count: 1792
Last write occurred (msecs): 8
Total writes: 490
Delayed writes: 0
Blocked in write: yes
Suspend count: 0
Sink buffer : 0xefebb000
Mixer buffer: 0xf03f4800
Effect buffer: 0xf0f64800
Fast track availMask=0xfe
Standby delay ns=1000000000
AudioStreamOut: 0xf1495880 flags 0x400001 (AUDIO_OUTPUT_FLAG_DIRECT)
Frames written: 878080
Suspended frames: 0
Hal stream dump:
Stream volumes in dB: 0:-10, 1:-20, 2:-23, 3:-14, 4:-23, 5:-23, 6:0, 7:-18, 8:-22, 9:-96, 10:-21, 11:0, 12:0
Normal mixer raw underrun counters: partial=0 empty=0
1 Tracks of which 1 are active
Name Active Client Type Fmt Chn mask Session fCount S F SRate L dB R dB VS dB Server Main buf Aux buf Flags UndFrmCnt Flushed
none yes 6279 3 00000006 00000003 1065 26460 A 3 44100 0 0 0 000D6D00 F0F64800 00000000 0x000 0 0
1 Effect Chains
2 effects for session 1065
In buffer Out buffer Active tracks:
0xf0f64800 -> 0xf45b3000 0xf45b3000 -> 0xf0f64800 1
Effect ID 651:
Session Status State Engine:
01065 000 003 0xf14a6840
Descriptor:
- UUID: 337377E3-92FC-4F0B-B677-EAEB249EAEE6
- TYPE: 534E176F-456C-4EF4-8099-D7BA766AB0FA
- apiVersion: EFC0EC3C
- flags: 0040004C (conn. mode: postproc, insert pref: first, volume mgmt: implements control, input mode: not set, output mode: not set, offloadable)
- name: lgmqadummy
- implementor: LG Software Ltd.
- Input configuration:
Frames Smp rate Channels Format Buffer
01792 44100 00000003 1 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT) 0xf45b3000
- Output configuration:
Buffer Frames Smp rate Channels Format
0xf45b3000 01792 44100 00000003 1 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT)
1 Clients:
Pid Priority Ctrl Locked client server
6279 0 yes yes 0 0
Effect ID 659:
Session Status State Engine:
01065 000 003 0xf2c204d0
Descriptor:
- UUID: 08B8B058-0590-11E5-AC71-0025B32654A0
- TYPE: 08B8B058-0590-11E5-AC71-0025B32654A0
- apiVersion: F05FA000
- flags: 00C00280 (conn. mode: insert, insert pref: any, volume mgmt: requires indication, device indication: requires updates, input mode: not set, output mode: not set, offloadable)
- name: Volume listener for Music
- implementor: Qualcomm Technologies Inc.
- Input configuration:
Frames Smp rate Channels Format Buffer
01792 44100 00000003 1 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT) 0xf45b3000
- Output configuration:
Buffer Frames Smp rate Channels Format
0xf45b3000 01792 44100 00000003 1 (AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT)
1 Clients:
Pid Priority Ctrl Locked client server
1161 0 yes yes 0 0
Local log:
11-04 11:37:22.288 CFG_EVENT_CREATE_AUDIO_PATCH: old device 0x8 (AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_WIRED_HEADPHONE) new device 0x8 (AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_WIRED_HEADPHONE)
11-04 11:37:22.307 addTrack_l (0xf092f600) none no 6279 3 00000006 00000003 1065 26460 A 1 44100 0 0 0 00000000 F0F64800 00000000 0x000 0 0

USB audio module:
No output streams.

No input streams.

Reroute submix audio module:
route[0] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[1] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[2] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[3] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[4] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[5] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[6] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[7] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[8] rate in=0 out=0, addr=[]
route[9] rate in=48000 out=48000, addr=[]

 

[audsl8]

thank you, I'll have a look at that and try to understand it

 

[SunnTho]

With Neutron Player, will the custom format option under the Generic Driver sub menu get around the upsampling issue? Or will that simply stop Neitron upsampling to 24 bit, while the phone will still upsample to 48khz?

 

[cenix]

Does anyone hear a small "hiss" or noise when loading up UAPP? That noise gets repeated after 4-5 seconds.

Edit: The same happens when I start/stop songs.

 

[435279]

Does anyone hear a small "hiss" or noise when loading up UAPP? That noise gets repeated after 4-5 seconds.

Edit: The same happens when I start/stop songs.

I don't but I'm not particularly susceptible to it with any of my devices. What IEM are you using?

I would guess its interference from the Wifi or 4G radios

 

[cenix]

I don't but I'm not particularly susceptible to it with any of my devices. What IEM are you using?

I would guess its interference from the Wifi or 4G radios

I am using a Vsonic GR07. Gotta admit that those are quite sensitive to these things.

 

[Jordandxb]

Does built in DAC of LG V30 or LG G7 improves quality of steaming music as well like Amazon music or Apple music apps content?

 

[csglinux]

Does built in DAC of LG V30 or LG G7 improves quality of steaming music as well like Amazon music or Apple music apps content?

In theory it should, because with the HiFi DAC on, the audio from any app will get processed through the quad DAC, even if that's via the Android mixer. The caveat here is the sampling-rate issue (described in the first post). Virtually all apps, including LG's own music app and the Amazon/Apple music players will cause 44 kHz/16-bit PCM files to be up-sampled to 48 kHz. This can create audible artifacts. Whether you hear those artifacts or not will depend your headphone sensitivity, volume level, etc. The only way I know to avoid this issue is to use an app like UAPP, which can stream bit-perfect (44 kHz/16-bit with no re-sampling) from certain services (Shoutcast, Google Play Music, Qobuz, Tidal), but not the two services you mention. OTOH, if your streaming app plays back hi-res audio (or anything 24 bit), then you're ok (because it will for sure playback without up-sampling), but I don't see that happening from the likes of Apple. Despite all the ballyhoo about how the removal of the headphone socket was going to yield a new era of dramatically-improved digital audio quality, things actually went in the other direction. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about audio quality

Whether you're still getting a benefit, even with the inevitable up-sampling artifacts, probably depends on what you're comparing against. An Apple dongle? Highly likely At high(er) volumes with less sensitive headphones, the quad DAC is still going to sound great. It would be interesting to try and quantify the effects of the up-sampling at higher output volumes. I'm working on that...

 

[csglinux]

V30 fans might be interested in the link below. I've recently been working with @SergeSE to try and figure out why SQ from certain devices didn't seem to correlate well with traditional measurements such as SNR, total harmonic distortion and two-tone intermodulation distortion. I recently found a couple of situations where software like RMAA would tell me device A was amazing and device B sucked, whereas my ears told me the opposite. I've long suspected that the numbers OEMs list for their device specs are mostly meaningless in terms of sound-quality perception from real music, i.e., where you can have transient effects (incl. near-Nyquist frequencies) and multiple tone IMDs.

@SergeSE has done some really interesting work on trying to statistically analyze the output of these various devices. The main issue with most audio-analyzer software is you need an input ADC which is much better spec'd than the DUT. That's a huge problem, because very good DACs are available for less than a few hundred dollars, but analyzers or ADCs which are of substantially better quality than those DACs can run you upward of $30,000 (e.g., APX555), and even the best currently available analyzers still aren't good enough to measure devices like the Chord M Scaler or DAVE. @SergeSE's software isn't about providing absolute numbers for THD, but rather allowing us to compare and contrast. And that's normally what most consumers want to know - which is "better" - A or B?

Here's my take on why this works. Imagine you're looking through some smeared camera lens at a scene or an image. It won't look perfect, because your camera/lens isn't perfect. But you should still be able to differentiate between aiming that camera lens at a crystal clear image vs aiming that same lens at a blurred or distorted image.

Anyway, here is the link to the list of measurements from my RME unit:

http://soundexpert.org/articles/-/blogs/audio-quality-of-high-end-portable-players

Note that the LG V30 measurement slide has a tab on it which you can click to expand to see measurements in all three modes (normal device mode, external device/aux mode and high-impedance mode). According to the df histogram median, there are two points of note here:

1) Other than the Hugo 2, the V30 beats every other device so far on the list.
2) There is no difference in SQ between any of the V30's three modes when output power is the same (120 mV).

I've noted point 2) before with respect to more standard measures of audio quality. I still regularly see posts about folks wanting to bump their V30s into high-impedance mode because they're convinced the SQ is better. There's been a long-running rumor that normal device mode only uses one of the four DAC pipelines. I view this as further evidence that that isn't the case, and that all four pipes are active regardless of output-power mode.

A big thanks to @SergeSE who has spent most of the last month of his life post-processing my data

 

[Jordandxb]

In theory it should, because with the HiFi DAC on, the audio from any app will get processed through the quad DAC, even if that's via the Android mixer. The caveat here is the sampling-rate issue (described in the first post). Virtually all apps, including LG's own music app and the Amazon/Apple music players will cause 44 kHz/16-bit PCM files to be up-sampled to 48 kHz. This can create audible artifacts. Whether you hear those artifacts or not will depend your headphone sensitivity, volume level, etc. The only way I know to avoid this issue is to use an app like UAPP, which can stream bit-perfect (44 kHz/16-bit with no re-sampling) from certain services (Shoutcast, Google Play Music, Qobuz, Tidal), but not the two services you mention. OTOH, if your streaming app plays back hi-res audio (or anything 24 bit), then you're ok (because it will for sure playback without up-sampling), but I don't see that happening from the likes of Apple. Despite all the ballyhoo about how the removal of the headphone socket was going to yield a new era of dramatically-improved digital audio quality, things actually went in the other direction. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about audio quality

Whether you're still getting a benefit, even with the inevitable up-sampling artifacts, probably depends on what you're comparing against. An Apple dongle? Highly likely At high(er) volumes with less sensitive headphones, the quad DAC is still going to sound great. It would be interesting to try and quantify the effects of the up-sampling at higher output volumes. I'm working on that...

I am using YouTube music subscription on my android phone and using KZ ZS10 pro and Shozy neo BG iems. It seems decent. I am planning to buy LG V30 for a powerful DAC inbuilt

 

[paul.tonnenberg]

... The Bottom Line: Recommended Music Apps for the LG V30 ... 2. UAPP - for all on-device storage playback, Google Play music and Tidal streaming. ... Recommended Settings: ... Under "Settings"->"HiRes Audio"->"HiRes driver flags", toggle on "Direct PCM" and "MQA". N.B. If your V30 is running Oreo (Android 8), you only need to turn on the "MQA" option here. ...)

I use my LG V30 with Android 8.0.0 and without root. I would like to ask for the sake of correctness / if that is still up to date: In UAPP, under "Settings"->"HiRes Audio"->"HiRes driver flags", i only need to turn on the "MQA" option here?

 

[csglinux]

I use my LG V30 with Android 8.0.0 and without root. I would like to ask for the sake of correctness / if that is still up to date: In UAPP, under "Settings"->"HiRes Audio"->"HiRes driver flags", i only need to turn on the "MQA" option here?

That's correct.

I'll update the first post to clarify.