I see a ton of hate on headphones with a consumer driven, bass heavy SS, because of their bleed into the mid range. I think it's worth mentioning that some headphones NEED to sound that way. I've never been a bass head, and appreciate neutral sound signatures, but high threshold, bassy headphones have a place among live set DJ's.
Beat's Mixr's for example. Awful personal listening cans, but their high threshold and massive mid bass hump is a delight when you're mixing EDM/Hip-hop in a crowded room with external monitors pumping into the room. I've personally used the Audio Technica Pro700mkII's as well, and they get the job done well, usually a go to for DJ's who match key religiously.
Odd topic I know, I just hate seeing people say. "They get real loud, but muddy bass"
Agreed. For mixing you need to hear the snare and the bass hit, thats about it. They need to isolate really well too.
What I hate is all the "audiophiles" that want headphones that simply sound bright and no bass at all, as if this where in some way a good thing. Same with the speakerophiles. Take them to a real orchestra performance and they will call it "midrange centric without any highs" and proceed to tell me that their speakers sound so much better than the live performance.
I see a ton of hate on headphones with a consumer driven, bass heavy SS, because of their bleed into the mid range. I think it's worth mentioning that some headphones NEED to sound that way. I've never been a bass head, and appreciate neutral sound signatures, but high threshold, bassy headphones have a place among live set DJ's.
Beat's Mixr's for example. Awful personal listening cans, but their high threshold and massive mid bass hump is a delight when you're mixing EDM/Hip-hop in a crowded room with external monitors pumping into the room. I've personally used the Audio Technica Pro700mkII's as well, and they get the job done well, usually a go to for DJ's who match key religiously.
Odd topic I know, I just hate seeing people say. "They get real loud, but muddy bass"
In the end there is actually a difference. It's simply about the detail you hear. It's regardless of bass or not. One of the greatest misunderstandings of Head-Fi is that bass heavy headphones all have a lack of detail.
In practice you have both bass heavy headphones with lower distortion and bass heavy headphones with minimal distortions.
If you look at it from an audiophile purist angle then all bass heavy headphones are judged on the simple fact that any V or U shape signature is going to smear the detail just a little in relation to a super-super flat transducer like the Sony R-10. Simply you just can't have a bass heavy audiophile headphone purely.
Still times are changing. You have bass heavy fun V-Shape signatures which still garner respect at Head-Fi. Even Sennheiser has released a bass adjustable headphone this year.
Again the difference is detail for the audiophile listener. Also price points are never important here due to value being all over the road.
ATH-M50 is a bass heavy headphone closed and could be used for DJ mixing but is fairly low priced and is loved by (some) audiophiles here. We know DJs need to have a closed headphone with a heavy beat to beat-match to put the two songs together. That concept still is in complete understanding that we could still love our DJ headphones for audiophile listening if detail was present.
Understanding the above concept in relation to the M-50s is a perfect example of my agrument against this threads basic concept. There are really two kinds of DJ headphones, ones that are clear across the spectrum and have extra bass, and some with a non-audiophile level of clear detail along with extra bass.
Seriously, who cares if a DJ likes the style of a headphone and loves the comfort and looks? If it is not audiophile but holds up and allows him or her to do their job then there is a place for it. On the other hand don't expect reviewers here to not point out that the headphones lacks detail in order to warn the bass head community at Head-Fi about a future purchase.
In ending this argument has absolutely nothing remotely resembling audio-price-point snobbery. It makes no difference what the price is. Here we are only interested if a bass heavy headphone can be used for daily audiophile purposes. Of course there are different choices, but our community is to delineate the difference between headphones with bass that will not ever offer detail, and bass heavy headphones which will continue to be a value to a buyer just due to the fact that they are detailed under the bass and will continue to be an entertaining headphone years down the road.
Suppose you're right, if the listener is using the wrong tool for the job it's at his own peril. I've enjoyed a DJ headphone as my portable for years however there are times I wonder if I'd have enjoyed something else more so. Likewise it's outshined many a high end open-back.
I've been reflecting on this since moving to speakers. There are significantly more brands and house sounds on offer. You really have to consider the intended use/music taste of the designers behind the product.
Well I'm no professional DJ but I have done DJing at parties and had all the 1200 turntables/equipment and know how to beat-match.
Saying that a headphone that has a bass-bump will help DJs is maybe true but it does not mean you could not hear the musical information underneath it? Some headphones are simply more clear than others, in the end.
The only thing many learned over the years here was that at times we got sick of color as it blurred what information we could retrieve. In the beginning the heavy color can be euphoric but later your listening mind figures out what is left out and the headphones become boring all of a sudden. Truth said all stuff has color, some more, some less.
Maybe the same with speakers but due to taste, room acoustics and the endless sound signatures ( like you said) there are even maybe more colors, so to speak.
I think the understanding of two audiophile words help in this talk.
Bass heavy:
A pronounced bass extraction and response.
Woolly:
Completely messed up and without definition, confused. No detail.
One offers color, one offers a lack of information.
Agreed. For mixing you need to hear the snare and the bass hit, thats about it. They need to isolate really well too.
What I hate is all the "audiophiles" that want headphones that simply sound bright and no bass at all, as if this where in some way a good thing. Same with the speakerophiles. Take them to a real orchestra performance and they will call it "midrange centric without any highs" and proceed to tell me that their speakers sound so much better than the live performance.
Mixing aside, you can have a bright sounding cans without sibilance with lots of bass and plenty details in the mids all at the same time.
Let's say with FR peaking at 40-60hz (sub-bass), 120hz (midbass), 500hz (thick mids), 2khz (soft mids and vocals) and 10khz or so.
Steeply dipping down after emphasized bass notes (at ~250Hz, ~-9dB) before rising again for 500Hz etc
I would take those over muddy ones any day of the week. Why settle on something inferior?
Agreed. For mixing you need to hear the snare and the bass hit, thats about it. They need to isolate really well too.
What I hate is all the "audiophiles" that want headphones that simply sound bright and no bass at all, as if this where in some way a good thing. Same with the speakerophiles. Take them to a real orchestra performance and they will call it "midrange centric without any highs" and proceed to tell me that their speakers sound so much better than the live performance.
Well, this whole audiophile signature is something to laugh at. In many ways the STAX headphones have seemed to hold that personality. I have not heard the top two STAX flagships so I can't comment.
I'm the perfect example of an audiophile who always had closed headphones. If I would have only owned headphones which sound like the HD 800 or AKG k701 line, I maybe would fit to that audiophile hyper-treble-hyper-detailed-mid profile.
What we are told is that a true flat sound can end-up sounding boring at first. A fact is that something which is totally respected as flat like the Sony R-10 can sound a little on the unemotional when first tried. This holds true especially for someone who loves bass.
Due to the main styles of music I listen to having extra bass moves stuff along. I have always steered towards the v-shape.
Even when I was really young I remember having audiophile friends who were keeping all the treble and bass controls flat powering mid-centric audiophile speakers. It was like " max the tone controls!"
Still even years ago there were audiophile systems which achieved a speaker V shape, just not all of them.
@Redcarmoose
Again, you don't have to have headphones with V shaped signature just because you enjoy plenty of bass. This is just a cheap / easy way out, but definitely not the only or the best way to go about this.
Been DJ'ing professionally for 35 years. Used the Beats Mixr, HD 25, Sony MDR-V700's, just about everything, I have 44 pair of headphones now.
Beats Mixr ticks all the boxes except for durability I think, it even had the 1/4" adapter attached to it the 1st run, but they stopped doing that for some reason, awesome feature. Had rolled off subs and pushed mids/high mids which spotlighted the kick and claps spectacularly. Couldn't listen to it anywhere except a DJ booth though because it was too harsh.
Lately I've been DJ'ing with Ether C's which has very little bass but the backbeat comes in so clearly that I can mix with them. I don't use an amp with it because most mixers are very powerful. I like to see the other DJ's eyes bug out when I let them hear them. Also been DJ'ing with the Audioquest Nighthawk which is better for mixing than the Ether C, but it's semi open and that makes it tough to travel with.
For DJ'ing sonically though it's really tough to beat my TH600, but again it's semi open too plus it's big and clunky.
Been DJ'ing professionally for 35 years. Used the Beats Mixr, HD 25, Sony MDR-V700's, just about everything, I have 44 pair of headphones now.
Beats Mixr ticks all the boxes except for durability I think, it even had the 1/4" adapter attached to it the 1st run, but they stopped doing that for some reason, awesome feature. Had rolled off subs and pushed mids/high mids which spotlighted the kick and claps spectacularly. Couldn't listen to it anywhere except a DJ booth though because it was too harsh.
Lately I've been DJ'ing with Ether C's which has very little bass but the backbeat comes in so clearly that I can mix with them. I don't use an amp with it because most mixers are very powerful. I like to see the other DJ's eyes bug out when I let them hear them. Also been DJ'ing with the Audioquest Nighthawk which is better for mixing than the Ether C, but it's semi open and that makes it tough to travel with.
For DJ'ing sonically though it's really tough to beat my TH600, but again it's semi open too plus it's big and clunky.
That is what I kinda thought. That DJs could use a range of headphones. You are listing models which we view here as both audiophile and flat if I have understood your post. I have a really old pair of Sony headphones from the late 1990s. To me they are flat, infact they were actually made to be the sound of a poor guys R10.
I noted a very famous DJ saying they were his favorite headphone but he did not go into why. They are closed but not a suction-cup like some closed. They are flat sounding, but maybe he liked them for what ever frequencies he heard in them or the wearability they had?
@Redcarmoose
Again, you don't have to have headphones with V shaped signature just because you enjoy plenty of bass. This is just a cheap / easy way out, but definitely not the only or the best way to go about this.
V shape pronounced bass for people wanting to hear it. At times covering sonic information.
Flat, all the tones in direct order. Still having a clear bass you can enjoy but not covering other tones as much as V shape.
Educate me how I'm missing the boat here. You are not clear.
My original response post is just pointing out that I feel this process comes down to both distortion and amount of bass.
This thread was made because I gave a DJ headphone a single star. The creator of this thread was explaining how you need a loud frequency to mix as a DJ and I was a snobby audiophile.
Still maybe a more purest view would be audiophiles only look at close to flat sound signatures.
I just think my main issue with the Urbanears was the distortions and lack of clarity from the distortions not just the bass. I have both headphones with bass and lower distortions. As simplification both too much bass and too much distortion are going to ruin clarity but there exists headphones which are (V-Shape) and clear.
ATH-M50 is a bass heavy headphone closed and could be used for DJ mixing but is fairly low priced and is loved by (some) audiophiles here. We know DJs need to have a closed headphone with a heavy beat to beat-match to put the two songs together. That concept still is in complete understanding that we could still love our DJ headphones for audiophile listening if detail was present.
Understanding the above concept in relation to the M-50s is a perfect example of my agrument against this threads basic concept. There are really two kinds of DJ headphones, ones that are clear across the spectrum and have extra bass, and some with a non-audiophile level of clear detail along with extra bass.
Seriously, who cares if a DJ likes the style of a headphone and loves the comfort and looks? If it is not audiophile but holds up and allows him or her to do their job then there is a place for it. On the other hand don't expect reviewers here to not point out that the headphones lacks detail in order to warn the bass head community at Head-Fi about a future purchase.
In ending this argument has absolutely nothing remotely resembling audio-price-point snobbery. It makes no difference what the price is. Here we are only interested if a bass heavy headphone can be used for daily audiophile purposes. Of course there are different choices, but our community is to delineate the difference between headphones with bass that will not ever offer detail, and bass heavy headphones which will continue to be a value to a buyer just due to the fact that they are detailed under the bass and will continue to be an entertaining headphone years down the road.
I disagree, I've used the M50/50x in live settings and I'm not a fan of them. Considering the M50's a "bass heavy" headphone is a bit much IMO. Personally the Pro700mk2 are the better DJ set from Audio Technica. The purpose of this thread was to discuss DJ application, and the niche that "wooly/bloated/muddy" headphones fill in their own respects. There are few headphones that I've used to monitor a live set, that I would also use as a personal listening pair (those being the HD-25's and Pro700mk2's). As for detail, you don't need immaculate separation when you're trying to play a flawless set lol. Kick/Snare/Melody/Key. If you do it long enough, those are what you listen for. (In my experience, since I only mix EDM.)
This FR curve is not perfect, but it makes my point:
You have peaks of bass, mids and highs all at roughly at the same level, but it's far from neutral sounding. It's bass oriented, but still relatively detailed.
Ideally for what I mean, this curve would have 2k 5dB higher and another ~-6dB dip at around 200Hz (decreasing sensitivity here in many cases improves clarity and tightens the bass as well as improves its texture/rumble). And maybe slightly more sensitive highs at 10+ khz.
Then 40-60Hz and 100Hz individually for bass and sub-bass could be safely at additional +3dB or so without making everything sound muddy.
This FR curve is not perfect, but it makes my point:
You have peaks of bass, mids and highs all at roughly at the same level, but it's far from neutral sounding. It's bass oriented, but still relatively detailed.
Ideally for what I mean, this curve would have 2k 5dB higher and another ~-6dB dip at around 200Hz (decreasing sensitivity here in many cases improves clarity and tightens the bass as well as improves its texture/rumble). And maybe slightly more sensitive highs at 10+ khz.
Then 40-60Hz and 100Hz individually for bass and sub-bass could be safely at additional +3dB or so without making everything sound muddy.
Thank-you, I will have to study it along with the curves of headphones I know. Just off the top of my head the curve looks like what a pair Apple EarPods sound like to me though just a guess, also I have not seen a curve on the Earpods.
Is there a headphone made that does that curve off the bat?
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They need to isolate really well too.
