[woodcans]

I just thought of another analogy while listening to Satriani's Is There Love in Space. On track #11: Bamboo, there is an intro of guitar and percussion, mostly cymbals with some drums. The precise location of the cymbals and drums is well delineated. Almost as if someone hit the equivalent of an autofocus button on the amp and everything became crystal clear in width and depth. I love it!!!

 

[e_dawg]

A significant part of burn-in is psychoacoustic adaptation. With tube amps, it's more due to the amp than with solid state due to the fact that tubes do change their sound while they are warming up and burn-in a bit, but still, much of the burn-in is psychoacoustic in nature.

I experienced the burn-in phenomenon as well going from the PPA to the SinglePower (as well as when I went from my AOS Piccolo to the SO L3+ modded CD-25 and Grado SR-60 to Senn HD650). But the biggest indicator of psychoacoustic adaptation can be demonstrated when going back to listen to my trusty PPA. Before, I thought the PPA with my favourite OPA627 op-amps was the best thing since sliced bread. After I got used to the MPX3, it is difficult to go back and listen to the PPA. The harshness, glare, and flat unidimensional sound was surprising, since the PPA sounded so "right" only half a year ago.

Try it. Go back to your old source/amp/headphones. You will realize how different it sounds (1) compared to your current equipement, and (2) compared to what you originally remember. Every time I go back and forth I am surprised at how much of an effect psychoacoustic adaptation has on my audio experiences.

 

[Glod]

I am not sure I follow your reasoning or what your point is.

Are you saying you hear something that is not there, i.e. that there shouldn’t be a difference in the sound signature between your audio equipment, but you hear it nevertheless?

 

[woodcans]

What I'm talking about is the difference in sound of my Singlepower amp between the time period when I first got the amp and now, after having put at least 300 hours on it. I have listened to it almost daily for months now, and having become quite accustomed to its sound, I am certain that while my perception may have changed somewhat, the sound of the amp has definitely changed and that the difference cannot be explained solely upon my aural perception.

I believe comparing the Singlepower amps to other solid state amps (including my own) is a completey different topic. While this is related to 'psychoacoutic adaptation', I think it has more to do with basics, i.e., the Singlepower just plain sounds better. An automobile analogy would be: once you get used to driving a lexus, porsche, etc., going back to your old buick just doesn't cut it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_dawg A significant part of burn-in is psychoacoustic adaptation. With tube amps, it's more due to the amp than with solid state due to the fact that tubes do change their sound while they are warming up and burn-in a bit, but still, much of the burn-in is psychoacoustic in nature. I experienced the burn-in phenomenon as well going from the PPA to the SinglePower (as well as when I went from my AOS Piccolo to the SO L3+ modded CD-25 and Grado SR-60 to Senn HD650). But the biggest indicator of psychoacoustic adaptation can be demonstrated when going back to listen to my trusty PPA. Before, I thought the PPA with my favourite OPA627 op-amps was the best thing since sliced bread. After I got used to the MPX3, it is difficult to go back and listen to the PPA. The harshness, glare, and flat unidimensional sound was surprising, since the PPA sounded so "right" only half a year ago. Try it. Go back to your old source/amp/headphones. You will realize how different it sounds (1) compared to your current equipement, and (2) compared to what you originally remember. Every time I go back and forth I am surprised at how much of an effect psychoacoustic adaptation has on my audio experiences.

 

[e_dawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glod I am not sure I follow your reasoning or what your point is. Are you saying you hear something that is not there, i.e. that there shouldn’t be a difference in the sound signature between your audio equipment, but you hear it nevertheless?

Everyone thinks their equipment has made this massive change in sonic signature purely due to the change in electrical properties of internal components during break-in. I am saying that the electrical changes are actually very minor and that the majority of the sonic changes you THINK you hear are due to psychoacoustic adaptation.

Your brain gets used to the way music sounds after listening to a particular setup. Change your setup and your brain has to get used to the new sound again. Once it has re-trained itself on how to perceive aural cues like soundstaging, depth perception, spectral balance, etc. then music naturally sounds better after that.

It's all in your head

 

[Glod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_dawg Everyone thinks their equipment has made this massive change in sonic signature purely due to the change in electrical properties of internal components during break-in. I am saying that the electrical changes are actually very minor and that the majority of the sonic changes you THINK you hear are due to psychoacoustic adaptation. Your brain gets used to the way music sounds after listening to a particular setup. Change your setup and your brain has to get used to the new sound again. Once it has re-trained itself on how to perceive aural cues like soundstaging, depth perception, spectral balance, etc. then music naturally sounds better after that. It's all in your head

All right, that's OK, AFAIC.

I am of another opinion. But, I am just a bit curious about two specific things.

1) Are you of the opinion that your different amps actually sound the same, but your mind tricks you to believe they don't, when you are aware of which one you're listening to?

2) Am I understanding you right that you find that any piece of audio equipment will sound really good, eventually, in the ears of the owner? It's just a matter of time and getting used to it?

I don't feel like going into a detailed debate again over this topic. At least not in this thread. I hope you don't mind. There are hundreds of posts on this subject elsewhere here. I think you follow me.

 

[Jahn]

apples and oranges, imho. the realm of "mental burn-in" is a different conversation from actual burn-in.

example- Grados. Switching from bowls to flats will instantly feel like that bass is big and boomy, the mids are squished in your face, everything is dulled up a bit. Give it a few days and those things are "forgotten" and you start enjoying all the things flats have to offer now that your ears/brain has adjusted.

Switching from flats to bowls, same thing. Now the instant feel is of "where did the bass go?" thin, shrill highs, etc. After a few days you're a mellow fellow and it's all light and airy. Mental burn-in!

But for me adaptation only takes a few days at best. When ACTUAL burn-in happens, it's totally different. You're listening to, say, TLC's "No Scrubs" when all of a sudden that bass goes THRUMBOOM and the track kicks in, and you hear things you've never heard before, and the soundstage gets thrown all over the place. Welcome to your Grados kicking into gear! Your drivers just shook out some stiffness and they are ready to rock!

I guess the same thing happens with Tube amps, I wouldn't know. But personally I believe in both mental aural adaptation, AND real burn-in benefits.

 

[Sleestack]

My MPX3 sounded amazing out of the box. I can't honestly say if the sound has significantly changed over time, but I can say that I like it more every day I spend listening to it.

So, I'm not sure about burn-in. I do know that after spending 5 hours under the cans, I do sometimes experience a bit of headphone burn-out.

 

[woodcans]

I like your theory. And while I can't say with certainty that you are wrong, I personally feel that you are partially right. I do agree that the electrical changes are most likely very minor. But IMO, the minor electrical changes are what cause the sharpening of the soundstage, improved depth, and increased detail. Because, as the amp is, it's already performing at a high level. I suspect the 'break-in' is the equivalent of a good tweak. Kinda like a good cable upgrade, etc.


Quote:

Originally Posted by e_dawg Everyone thinks their equipment has made this massive change in sonic signature purely due to the change in electrical properties of internal components during break-in. I am saying that the electrical changes are actually very minor and that the majority of the sonic changes you THINK you hear are due to psychoacoustic adaptation. Your brain gets used to the way music sounds after listening to a particular setup. Change your setup and your brain has to get used to the new sound again. Once it has re-trained itself on how to perceive aural cues like soundstaging, depth perception, spectral balance, etc. then music naturally sounds better after that. It's all in your head

 

[Yada]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack So, I'm not sure about burn-in. I do know that after spending 5 hours under the cans, I do sometimes experience a bit of headphone burn-out.

- That brought on a nice chuckle

 

[e_dawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glod 1) Are you of the opinion that your different amps actually sound the same, but your mind tricks you to believe they don't, when you are aware of which one you're listening to? 2) Am I understanding you right that you find that any piece of audio equipment will sound really good, eventually, in the ears of the owner? It's just a matter of time and getting used to it? I don't feel like going into a detailed debate again over this topic. At least not in this thread. I hope you don't mind. There are hundreds of posts on this subject elsewhere here. I think you follow me.

In response to #1. No, I believe that the two amps sound different. I am saying that when switching from amp 1 to amp 2, amp 2 will take a while to sound its best as perceived by one's brain (hence the psychoacoustic adaptation side of burn-in, or "mental burn-in" as another poster called it).

In response to #2. I believe one's brain naturally adapts to the sound of different setups, and can re-train itself to optimize its perception of sound and shift "norms" of spectral balance, soundstaging, etc. So yes, I believe that one will automatically grow to like their equipment over time to a certain extent (if you have the Ear Bleeder 2000 sitting on your desk, it ain't going to happen... similarly, if an amp has a lot of odd-order harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion, humans just don't like that stuff). But let's not forget that if you take a superior amp, your brain will also grow to like it more over time.

But you're right, Glod. We shouldn't get too deep into this debate. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in here because it seemed like nobody was talking about psychoacoustic adaptation in this thread... wanted to provide some balance to maintain perspective. Suffice it to say that I think psychoacoustic adaptation is more significant than some people give it credit for, and I guess you feel that electrical burn-in is the main event (although I, too, believe in the electrical/mechanical break-in of tube amps and headphones due to their nature)... that isn't going to change, and we have agreed to disagree here.

Surely, others will be debating this long after you and I are gone...