[Tuberoller]

SEK,
Whenever I see or here music scholars scoff at the notion that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer and hear them say that Monk's true understanding of the"written medium"of music was primititive I don't get angry,I feel sadness.It seems while the music was born here it is often most appreciated elsewhere.You are correct when you say the American Jazz artists are revered in the same way as the great classical composers in foreign lands.It is shameful that most still have not gained the same reverence in our own homeland.


As much as I loved Ken Burns' Jazz TV series,I feel it was over the heads of the non jazz fan.My kids still don't get it.My oldest daughter understands the significance of the stuggles that brought fourth the music,but she completely missed the the point that descibed the purpose of the music.This one of the many,many times when I would suggest that someone"read the book instead".At least read the book in addition to watching the show.

I was in Europe 6 years ago and had the oppurtunity to see Nina Simone perform at Lionel Hampton's Jazz club in London.I later went to see her at her own club in Paris on the same trip where I had the chance to talk to her at length.She expessed the sentiments of many of our musical expatriots when she told me she could not find decent work or respect here in the states.Her North American tour last year was her first here in over 25 years.yes,I did go see her when she performed in Chicago.Ramsey Lewis,who now is a radio personality here in Chicago,tells stories of European trips where is is recognized instantly even by youth and is sometimes approached at concert dates by fans with arm fulls of his records seeking autographs.I have been told he always obliges.

The great modern composers of all types of music seem to universally acknowlege the importance of the great Jazz composers and hold Monk in high regard especially.I here Billy Joel say that "There would be no Billy Joel signature sound without Thelonius Monk".I take comfort and see hope in the fact that every time I here a "new" song by artist that may have been inspired by Monk,Miles,Trane',Mingus or anyone who is inspired by any of their followers,the music lives on even if inadvertantly.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Too bad the discussion of jazz often goes right to an artist's drug use or other personal frailties.

Keep in mind that my mention of Coltrane's habit was not meant as sensationalism. I was simply pointing out how a shift in his style and musical maturity coincided with him getting clean -- a relevant issue, IMO.

 

[gorgon_123]

well I just ordered my first DVD

I can't wait to receive it now! Thanks for the heads up guys.

Has anyone seen A Great Day in Harlem? It's a great intro to Jazz for a newbie - it's how I first got into it a few years ago

Maybe I'll buy that on DVD too....

 

[coolvij]

jude: it's avatar - and means incarnation, essentially. Like, the form you assume......sorta. Not a very whole explanation - but that's the gist of it.....and MacDEF - you really did find a great one

 

[SEK]

Tuberoller, you succinctly express sentiments that are mine as well.

On that Ken Burns series: It was pretty good till Charlie Parker, but then the narrative was shaped to increasingly disparage the people who continued developing "jazz" in the '50s through '70s, so that Wynton (I don't mean Kelly...), though totally derivative, could come on the scene, denegrating his sources (except "Pops"), and, with the help of a clique of critics and Columbia/Sony maketing, become a self-styled "jazz" Messiah (Lester Bowie had Wynton down cold...). He and his fresh-faced, suit-and-tie neophytes had almost all the best gigs for a while. Fortunately, Stanley Crouch was able to get close to Mr. M. and help broaden and humble him a bit, and Wynton is busy pursuing his goal of transforming a living, breathing artform into a more static cannonical form. Still, I think the Ken Burns series is as good as it's going to get on American tv.

gorgon_123, I really enjoyed A Great Day in Harlem too. What a great historical happenstance that was for Art Kane to be able to assemble all those "jazz" luminaries who were in New York City on that day in 1958, leaving us that incredible photograph (I have a framed copy on the wall above the computer where I am sitting) and that fine documentary about the event.

MacDEF, I, like so many others here, rely on your keen insights and enthusiasm. I just felt that I could provide additional context and perspective for your important point about Trane's transition.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

MacDEF, I, like so many others here, rely on your keen insights and enthusiasm. I just felt that I could provide additional context and perspective for your important point about Trane's transition.

Sek, I appreciate your kind words. In fact, I really enjoyed reading your comments and Tuberoller's in this thread. I only made that post because I wanted you to know that I wasn't trying to bring up Trane's drug habit to sensationalize or criticize his career.

 

[KurtW]

Yes, a very enjoyable thread. I agree with SEK's comments regarding the Ken Burns series (as well as Day in Harlem). I find it interesting but not totally surpising that Ken Burns wasn't really into Jazz before he started his documentary, so I can see how he could have been overly influenced by a few people. Hopefully the series reached out to some people to get them more interested in jazz and learn from other sources as well.

 

[coolvij]

There's nothing to sensationalize about Trane, IMO.

He slipped for a while - and lost it.

And "it" was something VERY important to him...obviously.

I mean, recovering my a poor lifestyle is one thing, but being able to kick out Ascension, A Love Supreme, and others AFTER this is just amazing.

I love John Coltrane.....wish I coulda met him.......

 

[SEK]

Musically, I don't think he slipped - his work habits just got a bit unreliable. One of my favorite recorded examples of this is on one of those Monk bigband records, "Monk's Music", which I can't locate right now for some reason (!), with Trane (obviously) and Coleman Hawkins. I think that the song was "Little Rootie Tootie". Well, it was time for Trane to take a solo, but Trane was nodding. So you hear someone yell, "Coltrane. Coltrane!". Trane quickly roused himself and proceeded to play a marvelous solo that fit the proceedings and even raised the level of excellence. The year was that pivotal year for him, 1957.

 

[Tuberoller]

Don't you guys all hate those VH1 specials that show some 70's or 80's band or artist who has wasted his/her life away with drugs and/or alcohol and now is somehow trying to reclaim former glory.I wish some of the giants of jazz could have told their stories in their own words.I'm sure we have all read Miles' profane autobiographical masterpiece.I wish I could have heard Bird talk about his life.I have so many questions about the genious of Eric Dolphy.Have you ever heard or seen an interview with Coltrane?Even when he performed on Ralph Gleason's Jazz Casual series he did'nt give an interview.Second or third hand accounts of historic events are often accurate and thrilling but I would just love to have heard what Billy Holiday had to say about"Lady sings the blues".

The original thread here was in reference to Monk's "Straight no chaser" DVD.BUY IT!!It is a window into his world that would have never been revealed.I hurt me greatly to see Monk in the state he was in, turning in circles and all.But in order to fully understand his genious this video is a must.I'm not saying anyone who has not seen it does not understand Monk and his music ,just that greater coherance is possible by seeing it.


Some other great videos to see are Ralph Gleason' Jazz casual series,which features many of the all time greats including Coltrane,Basie,Cannonball,Mel Torme and others.I really loved"The world according to John Coltrane" and "Charles Mingus Triumph of the Underdog".Both are now available on DVD."The Blue Note Story" is worth the price for the pictures alone.And of course there is Ken Burns' Jazz,which has legs only because there has never been anthing else like it.

 

[gorgon_123]

it arrived. I'm off to go watch it now

my impressions later !

 

[gorgon_123]

thought I'd revive this thread just to say: Straight No Chaser DVD is amazing, a real find! I've watched it three times since receiving it. It's excellent to get an idea of the man behind the music. Very interesting, any Monk fan should own this

 

[coolvij]

SEK: slipped, by Trane standards? I think he did.....I mean, compare the solo you mentioned (which i haven't heard) to a solo on Kind Of Blue......

 

[SEK]

coolvij:

The session I referred to was from 1957. Kind Of Blue came out after Coltrane rejoined Miles. As I recall, Kind Of Blue was recorded in 1959. I don't think it's fair to say, for example, that I slipped in the seventh grade because I could not then do the algebra that I learned in the ninth grade. I also would not say that Trane slipped on Kind Of Blue, because his harmonic devlopment then was not what it would become on Giant Steps or at the Village Vanguard with Eric Dolphy in 1961.

I think it's also good to avoid a common pitfall that I and others sometimes lapse into, the fallacy of "comparing apples to oranges." In the case of comparing Trane's work at the Kind of Blue sessions with his work on Monk's music, there are several important differences besides the time factor. The other primary differences are differences between Monk's music and Miles's "Kind of Blue" music. Or the radical differences in the requirements of playing with pianist Thelonious Monk as opposed to 1959 Bill Evans. (It's easier to say that those requirements are different than to say that Evans was better than Monk, for example.)

Also the Monk session was on Riverside, and Miles's was on Columbia, two companies that generally differed in their approaches to recording and relating to artists. In general, Riverside had lower budgets and less preparation in their recording sessions. That apparently benefitted Monk's music, as I tend to prefer the rawness and open-ness of Monk's studio work with Riverside to the (relatively) buttoned-down attitude that Monk's music had in most of his Columbia studio sessions. On the other hand, Miles music took off once he moved to Columbia from Prestige. The opportunity for more deliberation and control (and remuneration) accellerated Miles's development ,exploration, and exposure. Also each new technological advance seems to yield new musical richness, depth, and details from sessions recorded at the superb Columbia studios in New York.