Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC (and headphone amp)
Feb 25, 2023 at 3:20 PM Post #346 of 577
I'm demoing a Mola Mola Tambaqui in a few days, thinking about a potential upgrade from my Node streamer and RME ADI DAC.

I wonder whether Mola Mola users/fans on this thread can offer me any advice before I go in for the demo. I must admit that I've never tried out a DAC at this pricepoint--nowhere close. I'm prepared to buy a unit if it's a good fit with my Stax headphone system. And, I'm trying to go into the demo without bias, but for a 10k piece of kit, I have questions and concerns:
I've never heard the Tambaqui or the RME ADI, but as someone who upgraded from a $2.5k DAC (Questyle CAS192D Gold) to a $25k (at time of purchase) DAC (EMM Labs DA2 V2) within the last two years, I thought I'd offer my perspective, FWIW. Note that in addition to my headphone gear, I own Vandersteen Treo CT speakers driven by Apollon PNC1200 monoblocks, which are connected to the second output of the same preamp (ARC Ref 6SE) in my headphone chain. What follows in one man's opinion, nothing more.
--I'm not rich. Expensive misfires matter. I have a $1500 digital setup (Node and RME) for that specific reason. If I'm going to pay 5-10x that amount for an upgrade, it better be pretty frigging noticeable :) Yes yes yes, diminishing returns etc etc etc., I accept that. What I can't accept is realising a month after purchase that I can't really hear that much difference after all. Do other forum members have any personal experience going from something Node-tier to Mola Mola-land?
It's impossible to predict what differences you'll perceive, or how much value you'll place on them. I was not dissatisfied with the Questyle at all, but after inserting the EMM Labs and listening to my speakers, the presentation was just more dynamic and authoritative. Soundstage dimensions increased, and instruments were more precisely delineated in space. Both DACs excelled at timbral realism and ambience retrieval, elements of "musicality" which I value highly. The superior technical attributes of the more expensive DAC were like frosting on an already delicious cake, if you will. Could I have continued to live with the Questyle after hearing the EMM Labs? Absolutely! Would I have spent over $25k on a DAC if it meant denying myself my next vacation, not going out to fancy restaurants now and then, of other lifestyle sacrifices? Almost certainly not. Furthermore, EMM Labs already trickles their technology down with their lower end Meitner brand, which is surely a better value proposition had I wanted to economize.
--I'm not sure how to distinguish between what I'll hear (or should I write 'not hear') on the Tambaqui, its streamer or its DAC. Because I'm looking at replacing both, possibly as separates, I'd like to remove as many variables as possible for the demo. Is is possible to only use the Tambaqui DAC, and vice versa, only use the streaming component?
With competently engineered DACs (which the Tambaqui surely is), there shouldn't be much (if any) variability between using different inputs, but I'd probably opt for using USB on both DACs if the RME doesn't also feature an Ethernet port. Or just compare the DACs as you ultimately plan to deploy them in your own system.
--Perhaps most important, I'm not convinced that a summit DAC has as much impact on a headphone system (regardless of price) versus a comparably tiered stereo system. In other words, my RME might be inadequate for a proper stereo, but it might not make so much difference on headphones. I notice that nearly every single review is about the Tambaqui on a stereo. Are there forum members who use both stereo and headphones with their Tambaqui, and if so, do you notice differences in SQ impact?
In my experience, 2-channel systems are typically superior to headphones for comparing DACs. Soundstaging in particular is easier to evaluate (unless you have a bad room, or speakers that don't excel in that department). That said, differences should also be readily evident on top-tier cans, such as the STAX X9000, Susvara, etc.
--Final question: for those of you who sprung for the pre-amp, does it "really" improve the Tambaqui's SQ? I almost certainly can't buy a pre-amp, but you never know...

My other option is to simply wait for good tech to trickle down to more affordable prices, but I'm not sure I'll live that long.
Most DACs that cost less than the Tambaqui use a 3rd party DAC chip, which will never quite get you to the same level of technical (measured) performance. That said, any number of less-expensive DACs sound fantastic. You'll need to decide for yourself whether the cost is worth it. BTW, I would have considered auditioning the Tambaqui along with the EMM Labs but I preferred the latter's feature set (even though it has no internal streamer), and I'm not a huge fan of the Mola Mola aesthetic. Also, Bruno Putzeys (designer of the Tambaqui) is now long gone from MM, while Ed Meitner (EMM Labs) continues to develop improvements which can be retrofitted to his existing DACs.
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 1:57 AM Post #348 of 577
I'm demoing a Mola Mola Tambaqui in a few days, thinking about a potential upgrade from my Node streamer and RME ADI DAC.

I wonder whether Mola Mola users/fans on this thread can offer me any advice before I go in for the demo. I must admit that I've never tried out a DAC at this pricepoint--nowhere close. I'm prepared to buy a unit if it's a good fit with my Stax headphone system. And, I'm trying to go into the demo without bias, but for a 10k piece of kit, I have questions and concerns:

--I'm not rich. Expensive misfires matter. I have a $1500 digital setup (Node and RME) for that specific reason. If I'm going to pay 5-10x that amount for an upgrade, it better be pretty frigging noticeable :) Yes yes yes, diminishing returns etc etc etc., I accept that. What I can't accept is realising a month after purchase that I can't really hear that much difference after all. Do other forum members have any personal experience going from something Node-tier to Mola Mola-land?

--I'm not sure how to distinguish between what I'll hear (or should I write 'not hear') on the Tambaqui, its streamer or its DAC. Because I'm looking at replacing both, possibly as separates, I'd like to remove as many variables as possible for the demo. Is is possible to only use the Tambaqui DAC, and vice versa, only use the streaming component?

--Perhaps most important, I'm not convinced that a summit DAC has as much impact on a headphone system (regardless of price) versus a comparably tiered stereo system. In other words, my RME might be inadequate for a proper stereo, but it might not make so much difference on headphones. I notice that nearly every single review is about the Tambaqui on a stereo. Are there forum members who use both stereo and headphones with their Tambaqui, and if so, do you notice differences in SQ impact?

--Final question: for those of you who sprung for the pre-amp, does it "really" improve the Tambaqui's SQ? I almost certainly can't buy a pre-amp, but you never know...

My other option is to simply wait for good tech to trickle down to more affordable prices, but I'm not sure I'll live that long.
Are you sure your headphones and amplifier are the best and can't be improved (upgraded)? With this budget, I'd think about how to spend it rationally and there I believe in general rules, that transducer is most influential, followed by amplifier, followed by the source component (streamer, spinner, DAC). Saying that, I also spent more on DAC (Hugo TT2) than on headphones, but wanted to have the source solved before I decide on headphones.
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 6:48 AM Post #349 of 577
Are you sure your headphones and amplifier are the best and can't be improved (upgraded)? With this budget, I'd think about how to spend it rationally and there I believe in general rules, that transducer is most influential, followed by amplifier, followed by the source component (streamer, spinner, DAC). Saying that, I also spent more on DAC (Hugo TT2) than on headphones, but wanted to have the source solved before I decide on headphones.
Well...I am still new to hifi, but I feel comfortable with my Stax(es) and amps. Soren Brix is a highly regarded electrostatic amp builder, and I'm close to a position where further upgrades aren't possible with my headphones and amps.

I'm currently in-home demoing a (kind of) more affordable U2 mini streamer, and I must admit that I (think I) hear a SQ improvement over my Node. But I need more time to compare. I might be a convert to streamers being better up the price scale, we will see :)

I love my RME DAC. The Mola Mola would need to blow me away, hence my specific questions in my original post. Whatever happens, this will be an engaging week!
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 7:14 AM Post #350 of 577
Well...I am still new to hifi, but I feel comfortable with my Stax(es) and amps. Soren Brix is a highly regarded electrostatic amp builder, and I'm close to a position where further upgrades aren't possible with my headphones and amps.

I'm currently in-home demoing a (kind of) more affordable U2 mini streamer, and I must admit that I (think I) hear a SQ improvement over my Node. But I need more time to compare. I might be a convert to streamers being better up the price scale, we will see :)

I love my RME DAC. The Mola Mola would need to blow me away, hence my specific questions in my original post. Whatever happens, this will be an engaging week!
@Aspirant Audiophile while I can not comment on Node vs Lumin in terms of SQ other than both devices are great and are doing their job especially considering their price tags I can comment on Mola Mola vs RME. RME is great dac with many features that are missing in many other similarly or higher priced products but it is still based on off-the-shelf dac chip with all of the limitation of it. There is nothing wrong with using off-the-shelf dac chip since I've heard dac/amps being based on those (ESS for example) and easily beating in-house solutions based on FGPA for example, therefore I am far from stating that by looking at charts, specs and BoM you can actually tell anything about SQ and sound signature in absolute terms but... Tambaqui is something very special IMHO and if I would be changing dac this one would be high on my list. So far only some R2R dacs could compete with Tambaqui.

The problem with Tambaqui is that is so detailed and precise it will reveal all the flaws in particular track. In turn some your favourite albums may lost even a lot of charm. Also some other more "analogue" sounding dacs including those with tubes maybe more romantic and easy to listen especially for longer listening session. On the other hand if you like RME you maybe very well with Tambaqui.
 
Mar 2, 2023 at 8:54 AM Post #351 of 577
Tambaqui Schematic.png

https://www.mola-mola.nl/dac.php
"The converter is a two board stack that fits into one of the option slots in the preamp. On the first board, all incoming digital audio is upsampled to 3.125MHz/32 bits and converted to noise shaped PWM. On the other board are two mono DACs, in which a discrete 32- stage FIR DAC and a single-stage 4th order filtering I/V converter, convert the PWM...
...extraordinary care has been taken to deal with jitter. Mola Mola’s DAC uses a home-grown asynchronous upsampling algorithm whose input frequency measurement slows down rapidly until after a few seconds of lock, the frequency ratio measurement is frozen. Frequency stability is then wholly determined by the internal clock, a laboratory grade 100MHz SC-cut oscillator. This is effectively an atomic clock sans the physics package"

Hi-Fi news:
"Mola-Mola’s software upsamples all incoming data to 3.125MHz, truncating the wordlength to 5-bits while using a 7th-order noise-shaper to retain full dynamic range right up to 80kHz. Each 5-bit digital ‘word’ is sufficient to describe one of 32 possible pulse widths that, in turn, describe the amplitude of the audio signal on an (over)sample-by-sample basis. The pulses vary in steps of 10nsec (the system clock is 100MHz) right up to a full width of 320nsec (0.32µsec). This Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal is fed into a 32-stage shift register, clocked at 100MHz, so a composite of 32 pulses ends up reproducing the full PWM signal every 10nsec.

The 32 outputs of the register are summed together so that the final DAC output is the moving average of the PWM signal over consecutive blocks of
32 clock cycles (ie, one PWM cycle), updating every 10nsec. The PWM signal is ‘conditioned’ by a comb filter whose teeth coincide exactly with the 3.125MHz repetition rate. Mola-Mola could have used the signal from any of the 32 outputs alone and simply low-pass filtered it. Instead, the moving average technique not only overcomes any slight mis-match in the summing resistors but it also removes the PWM carrier that could potentially demodulate clock jitter down into the audio band."

Stereophile (B. Putzeys words):
"Compared to the state of the art, I had quite a shopping list of things I wanted to get right, but the absolute number one item was a completely signal-independent noise floor. If the noise floor modulates, that immediately gives the sound away as 'digital.' If you want to see a typical sigma-delta converter at its worst, feed it a constant code (ie DC). Some DC values produce clearly audible whistles. If you want to tease an R2R DAC in a similar manner, feed it a ramp signal. I wanted something where the noise floor is truly just a steady hiss, no matter what signal you put in. This is what drove the choice of single-edge PWM as the digital intermediate code.

"As luck would have it, I'd invented precisely such a modulator in 2004 as a mathematical stunt with no particular application in mind, but that it might be useful for a converter was clear even then. I filed away the idea, waiting for an excuse to make a DAC. That came when we started demoing with the Makua and Kalugas [Mola's pre and power amplifiers, respectively] and had trouble finding a converter that would show off the quality of the system without multiplying the price of the whole setup....So, a DAC project got under way in 2013.

"Initially, I looked at using only a single, high-current switch to convert the PWM signal, but it soon struck me that running a number of them in a time-staggered fashion would allow me to remove most of the PWM carrier right away and so reduce noise. That was the core of the design. The remainder of the project was being completely anal about all the other stages of the converter: digital filtering, clocking, and analogue-output filtering.

"Of those, only the digital filter needed to be optimized by ear. It's pretty obvious that a more stable clock is more ideal, and an output filter with lower noise and distortion is also more ideal. But there's no ideal upsampling filter, a priori: The ear is not a spectrum analyzer. You need to listen to original high-rez files, filter them down, upsample them again, and then hear which kind of filter chain leaves the smallest sonic fingerprint. That is to say, how do you get from high-rez to (eg) "Red Book" and back whilst getting the smallest possible audible change? And then it turns out that a lot of filters out there sound really impressive, but only because they're heavily euphonic—not because they're sonically neutral....To make matters worse, the optimum design differs for different sampling rates....

"Clocking was addressed using a very stable, non-adjustable crystal oscillator—adjustable ones are quite noisy—and synchronizing the signal using a homegrown asynchronous sample-rate converter that forms part of the digital filter. How that was done is a story in its own right, but it might take us a bit far [afield]. Same for the analogue output filter stage, which is also rather original in its conception. So, as much as you'd like to know what the magic ingredient is, I can only tell you that it's about getting all the parts right, not just individually but as a system. t's not sexy, but then real engineering rarely is."

ASR (B. Putzeys words):
"In case anyone's wondering why I decided to go discrete, I actually started testing existing sigma-delta DAC chips first but could find none that didn't have idle tones. I suspect that is still the case. Chip manufacturers usually manage to move these out of the band at mid-scale (i.e. zero or small signal), but they show up in a THD vs level graph as a small increase in apparent noise typically starting at -20dBfs. Basically this "noise" are tones that are swept in and out of the audio band, frequency modulated by the signal. The simplest way of testing for this is to do a noise level vs DC input plot. The tones, when they appear, are well above the noise floor, even as integrated over the audio band. Using PWM as a conversion format solves this tone problem, but nobody is doing that on an IC. Hence the discrete design. I won't speculate on the audibility of this phenomenon but anything that is measurable is fair game for me. If people are going to shell out serious moolah for a DAC, least thing you can do is show an objectively provable benefit. Low jitter is also something I like to that's why we ended up coding our own ASRC algorithm."

"All ADCs/DACs have some sort internal data format that is used to get from digital to analogue. The converter circuit and the internal format are chosen together, depending on the designer's judgment or expectation of which combo is optimal. There are only two cases where the internal format coincides with an existing audio format. On one extreme are R2R DACs that directly convert the PCM data you feed them by controlling 24 switchable current sources, each of which has half the current of the previous one. On the other extreme sit 1-bit converters that switch a single current or voltage source but at a high sampling rate. Both these extremes have limitations and the most common choice these days is a kind of compromise. They use a small number of bits (typically 5) that are used to control 32 (2^5) current sources with nominally equal currents, plus some trick to make the conversion minimally sensitive to any imbalances in those currents. The Tambaqui sits more or less in this camp: the PWM signal has a switching frequency of 3.125MHz, and can take 33 discrete lengths from 0*10ns to 32*10ns. So it's basically a 5-bit, 3.125MHz converter. The choice for PWM was given by the need to get rid of those idle tones I mentioned."

EAR (B. Putzeys words):
“I would have been happy to cobble it together from standard DAC chips etc, if there had been any way it would have checked off my complete shopping list:

1) No noise floor modulation.
2) Negligible distortion from tiny signal levels up to full output.
3) Jitter elimination down to very low frequencies.
4) Digital filters with negligible in-band ripple (i.e. no pre-echo).
5) Digital filters with moderately slow transition (i.e. reasonably short ring tails).

No DAC chip fulfils the first item in the list and no ASRC does the third (a discrete PLL without SRC conceivably could be built). The remaining three don’t seem to occur together in any standard chipset I could find. I was simply forced to take the long way round.
The entire story about how exactly it’s done is for geeks, but for me the secret is realising the importance of all five items mentioned above and getting them sorted by whatever means.”

Audiophilestyle (Mola DAC vs Chord DAVE thread):
The upsampler and modulator are written in software. The upsampler is an asynchronous sample rate converter. You can also buy chips that do that but they only come with "just good enough" filter responses and neither do they have a particularly narrow PLL bandwidth so there was no alternative left but build one from the ground up. The choice for asynchronous vs using multiple clock crystals was made because you can't make a tuneable oscillator with the extremely stable SC cut crystal that MM use.

Far from being hard coded, the entire thing is completely software defined. OTOH the user has no say in what type of filter it uses, it being felt that allowing users to toy with it was a gimmick, since for every input rate there can only be one filter setting that is least audible (the filters change with input rate and format). It follows that any one might add just for the sake of "giving users a choice" would be more audible.

The modulator is PWM and is based on a scheme invented in 2004 to generate noise shaped PWM. It should be noted that it's not an n-bit noise shaper followed by a conversion to PWM but the PWM is noise shaped directly. Of course, from an information perspective we're still looking at the equivalent of 5 bits at 3.125 MHz however you want to look at it. The gory details are in https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES120BP_Simple_ultralow_distortion_digital_PWM.pdf
What sets this type of PWM aside from ordinary 1-bit sigmadelta is that it is inherently free from intersymbol interference. If you reproduce a 1-bit signal using a switching circuit whose rising and falling edges aren't exactly symmetrical you get a distortion component equal to the number of 1/0 transitions per second, which varies with the signal and which has tone like components. With the single-edged PWM conversion the number of transitions per second is constant and only one of the two edges encodes a signal so the same rising/falling asymmetry would cause nothing worse than a tiny amount of DC offset. This observation was first made by Peter Craven in 1993, who was then trying to design a DAC for B&W and published a way of generating such a signal. So if you are looking for a historical precedent for using PWM in a DAC, that is the closest you'll get. If you compare Craven's paper (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7001 ) with the one linked above you can see the new method is significantly more straightforward and has lower distortion.

The FIR trick is this: if you generate a clocked PWM signal with a period of N clock cycles, and you run that through a FIR filter with N equal valued coefficients, the output of that FIR filter is simply the total number of ones over the past full cycle. This removes the PWM switching frequency and some shaped noise from the output signal, making life easier on the analogue filter that follows. The resistors need not be matched since each tap sees the complete signal. A mismatch only slightly affects the attenuation of the 3.125MHz component. This is why FIR DACs are used. They have been around in some form or other since the mid 90's. I'm not sure about other commercially available PWM based FIR DACs though.
Really enjoyed this 👍

Such ingenuity in the (digital) design and ambition with the product. Hats off!
 
Mar 11, 2023 at 4:42 PM Post #352 of 577
Seeing all the used tambaquis popping up at once (many from dealers), any one have info if tambqui 2 is about to drop or something?
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 10:01 AM Post #353 of 577
My Tambaqui arrived earlier this week to replace my TT2 + Mscaler stack. While unplanned, it does aesthetically complement the Flux Volot sitting next to it with the black and light grey tones.

Still getting familiar with the sound signature in my chain but upon first listen it put a big smile on my face with a track I’ve heard many, many times before and has never sounded better than with the Tambaqui.
 

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Mar 24, 2023 at 10:08 AM Post #354 of 577
My Tambaqui arrived earlier this week to replace my TT2 + Mscaler stack. While unplanned, it does aesthetically complement the Flux Volot sitting next to it with the black and light grey tones.

Still getting familiar with the sound signature in my chain but upon first listen it put a big smile on my face with a track I’ve heard many, many times before and has never sounded better than with the Tambaqui.
With Ardberg it should be even better :wink:
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 1:39 PM Post #355 of 577
My Tambaqui arrived earlier this week to replace my TT2 + Mscaler stack. While unplanned, it does aesthetically complement the Flux Volot sitting next to it with the black and light grey tones.

Still getting familiar with the sound signature in my chain but upon first listen it put a big smile on my face with a track I’ve heard many, many times before and has never sounded better than with the Tambaqui.
Would love to hear your impressions once you’ve had enough time with the Tambaqui.

I just recently purchased and returned a dcs Lina because it just didn’t sound better than my current dac in my setup.
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 2:51 PM Post #356 of 577
Would love to hear your impressions once you’ve had enough time with the Tambaqui.

I just recently purchased and returned a dcs Lina because it just didn’t sound better than my current dac in my setup.
One initial impression I can share since I see you also own a Lumin is that while the Roon Ready network input on the Tambaqui is very good, I do prefer running through my Lumin U2 mini to the MMT over USB. I A/B'd both inputs this morning and the Lumin to USB feed just felt a bit more lively. Could be placebo but I'm sticking with it for now.
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 4:00 PM Post #357 of 577
One initial impression I can share since I see you also own a Lumin is that while the Roon Ready network input on the Tambaqui is very good, I do prefer running through my Lumin U2 mini to the MMT over USB. I A/B'd both inputs this morning and the Lumin to USB feed just felt a bit more lively. Could be placebo but I'm sticking with it for now.
It’s not placebo. A good USB input (more so with an Innuos Phoenix USB DDC) sounds better than MMT Ethernet in my view and I think others. I have tried with 2x / optical EtherRegen optimising Ethernet but not yet the Innuos Ethernet switch. Will pick one up and try that when I’m back with my system this summer. But I feel a dread sense of inevitable Grimm MU1 > kilobuck stupid AES cable > MMT > ARC preamp > ATC monitors ruining my financial planner’s day.
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 4:18 PM Post #358 of 577
i
One initial impression I can share since I see you also own a Lumin is that while the Roon Ready network input on the Tambaqui is very good, I do prefer running through my Lumin U2 mini to the MMT over USB. I A/B'd both inputs this morning and the Lumin to USB feed just felt a bit more lively. Could be placebo but I'm sticking with it for now.
Agree, it,s cleaner with other inputs. but with cost of instrument timber. Could be my brain is converting some of the extra harmonics via ethernet to timber, but I like the more vibrant guitars and lush saxophones with the network connection. :wink:
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 8:13 PM Post #359 of 577
it's a relief to see others having similar impressions to mine.. just to tell myself I'm not crazy.

preferred every other input into the MMT other than ethernet. with the MMT, and same as the wavelight, I liked the aes/ebu connection the most.

with the Meitner MA3, I prefer USB over aes/ebu and ethernet. USB coming out of the lumin u2 mini; bass digs deeper, more sensation of rumble/reverb, and more meat throughout. I contemplated selling the lumin to cut down on boxes and just go ethernet into MA3 but am seriously reconsidering..
 
Mar 24, 2023 at 8:44 PM Post #360 of 577
it's a relief to see others having similar impressions to mine.. just to tell myself I'm not crazy.

preferred every other input into the MMT other than ethernet. with the MMT, and same as the wavelight, I liked the aes/ebu connection the most.

with the Meitner MA3, I prefer USB over aes/ebu and ethernet. USB coming out of the lumin u2 mini; bass digs deeper, more sensation of rumble/reverb, and more meat throughout. I contemplated selling the lumin to cut down on boxes and just go ethernet into MA3 but am seriously reconsidering..
I just had a quick look at the Lumin U2 Mini product brochure. It appears said product features upsampling/downsampling, volume control, MQA decoding, and possibly other processing. If you're hearing something different over USB than over Ethernet, I'd wonder if the exact same data is entering the DAC in both instances. Both interfaces to the MA3 are galvanically isolated, and data arrives asynchronously (and is internally upsampled prior to conversion) via either interface. Does the Lumin U2 Mini have a pass-through mode which defeats all its internal processing? I'm genuinely curious what may be accounting for your perceptions.
 

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