[Xerxes]

Actually, I mean even comparing wrt to player in the 1000-2000 region. You should check out which DACs and opamps are the Sony using. It should be much lower in specs than that of the 963sa.

For example, the Meridian DVD-A players uses the OP275 which are only 9Mhz grain bandwidth.

 

[M_Anker]

Quote:

It also uses the AD1955 A/D converter (M_Ankler is completely wrong here) that is has the highest spec in the industry.

Philips seemed to think that the AD1955 was so good that they decided to relegate it to the stereo outputs destined for the TV. The primary audio DAC in the player is a Cirrus logic 6 channel chip.

Quote:

It uses ultra high-speed (>100Mhz), low noise op-amps which are rarely used in other player.

Interestingly enough, the premium opamp in the player is rated at only 80MHz. This being said, I want to make clear the fact that bandwidth is nothing. 1MHz would be plenty. I actually like the AD826 for an audio opamp, but it only has a 50MHz bandwidth. Specs are not critical, sound is. As I recall, the 963SA uses the AD8032, which was never designed for audio in the first place. Rather it would appear to be an instrumentation amplifier. Amazingly, it only runs on a 5 volt dual supply. This is pretty low when I'm used to 15 volt devices. Being an instrumentation is not bad, but sometimes those chips can sound a bit too analytical to stand.

From what I've learned over the past several years, the only good opamp is no opamp at all. There will never be a chip that can convince me otherwise. Discrete is the way to go, period.

Quote:

Having said the above, performance can be quite easily applied to extract even more performance. The simplest (and one of the most effective) mod that I would like to recommed (completely reversible) is to use cardas RCA caps to cover unused terminal. This dramatically reduce the already low noise level even further.

The best mod I could think of would be to rip the entire switching power amplifier out of the player and replace it with a linear. Then you'll get that low noise level! These poorly filtered switchers have their switching frequency riding on every DC voltage that they produce. You can hear it as high frequency harshness. It is quite subtle, but it's there.

There is so much that can be done to this player, and the sound is unacceptable, at least right out of the box. It most reminds me of my first Sony CE775 right after I got it. Harsh, anemic, and uninvolving.

Quote:

Actually, I mean even comparing wrt to player in the 1000-2000 region. You should check out which DACs and opamps are the Sony using. It should be much lower in specs than that of the 963sa.

Again, specifications only tell half of the story. A opamp with an extremely high bandwidth or slew rate could be the worst thing you've ever heard. Still, the best opamp is no opamp. Also, Sony might use lower spec'ed parts, but they certainly sound better because they're either better parts or Sony knew how to implement them.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or bash their players, but the truth needs to be told. I believe in being honest, brutally honest sometimes. The Philips 963 is not much better off than the Sony 755V, just a little better circuitry, and a lot higher price.

Here's a picture of Ric Schultz's mod for the 963. It's the only internal picture I can think of right at the minute. The original boards are green and brown. Everything else you would normally be bare metal.

 

[spaceman]

Thanks for the info Matthew. Could you let us know when you start modding the 963SA?

 

[Xerxes]

quote:
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Philips seemed to think that the AD1955 was so good that they decided to relegate it to the stereo outputs destined for the TV. The primary audio DAC in the player is a Cirrus logic 6 channel chip.
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If you have traced the circuit properly, then you will know that the 1955 is used in the front L/R channel of the multi-channel output.

quote:
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Interestingly enough, the premium opamp in the player is rated at only 80MHz. This being said, I want to make clear the fact that bandwidth is nothing. 1MHz would be plenty
Amazingly, it only runs on a 5 volt dual supply
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It runs on 8V rail.

quote:
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The best mod I could think of would be to rip the entire switching power amplifier out of the player and replace it with a linear. Then you'll get that low noise level! These poorly filtered switchers have their switching frequency riding on every DC voltage that they produce. You can hear it as high frequency harshness. It is quite subtle, but it's there.
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First of all, it is not easy, and it voids warranty, and you will charge 200 buck for it.

Also the switching power supply in the 963sa is NOT noisy. I have measure the audio performance and it gives >110db of S/N to 100khz without muting on my Audio Precision. Easily one of the best measurements at any price.

Like to know how you came to the conclusion. By theory?

quote:
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There is so much that can be done to this player, and the sound is unacceptable, at least right out of the box. It most reminds me of my first Sony CE775 right after I got it. Harsh, anemic, and uninvolving.
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Just your opinion. I happen to think that it sound quite good. Easily bettered the Sony9000ES, XA-7ES and Pioneer AX-10 which I owned. This is seconded by many other users on this site.

quote:
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Again, specifications only tell half of the story. A opamp with an extremely high bandwidth or slew rate could be the worst thing you've ever heard. Still, the best opamp is no opamp. Also, Sony might use lower spec'ed parts, but they certainly sound better because they're either better parts or Sony knew how to implement them.
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I have heard this one before.... Specs in not important.

A high slew opamp sound bad if you cannot control the high frequency ringing due to high-speed and bandwidth. You must have found that out when you have substituded those opamp into your circuit without proper analysis and measurements (specs not important! screw the measurements!).

A properly design high speed circuit (without rining) would have been much different.

quote:
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I'm not trying to attack anyone or bash their players, but the truth needs to be told. I believe in being honest, brutally honest sometimes.
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Same here. Just stating facts.

 

[pigmode]

Xerxes,
Shouldn't you have identified yourself as a Phillips employee that has had some function or another in the design/voicing of the 963?

 

[Xerxes]

Yes I am, Hence I have the fact to prove what I say is correct.

 

[bluesaint]

Xeres,

Thanks for sharing your information and your time on the 963's circuit layout and function, however, assuming warranty voiding is not a concern, what aspects of the 963SA do you see could use improving to elevate it's performance?

 

[M_Anker]

Quote:

Yes I am, Hence I have the fact to prove what I say is correct.

I'm glad we got that out, as I was wonderring how you could have known so much about the circuit. After all, there is no published service manual or schematic (thanks a lot Philips, you treat your dealers so well

)

Realize that I am somewhat of an audio traditionalist. I listen to vinyl, I have an entirely tube preamp, I look at opamps as the work of the devil, and switching power supplies are pure evil. It seems that the entire goal of the 963 was to make an acceptable sounding piece with as little cost (to manufacture) as possible. I am reminded by a great saying about technology, "The goal of technology is to make something as cheap as possible and still work." The 963 seems to be an example of this.

Realize that the information I presented was the result of a quick inspection of the player. I wanted to get a look around, then let it run for the next week or two to make sure it didn't die outright (famous Philips repair history). My real reasoning behind this is because when I got the player direct from the Philips distributor it was Dead on Arrival. Somebody in the production line forgot to push the plug running from the power supply to the main board in all the way. The power cable was just dangling in there when I opened the case to find out what went wrong.

Now, Xerxes, instead of having a pissing contest here, why don't we work together to get this thing sounding better than it does straight out of the box. Because of the lack of published schematics, I'm going to need all the help I can get, and having a Philips engineer available would really make it much easier. What do you say, want to help?

Also, you wouldn't happen to know which clock is driving the main 2 channel DAC?

 

[Xerxes]

Dear Mathew,

I have already shared one of the best mod to all the reader here. Ie, cover all unused terminal with cardas end caps. You will be amazed by the improvements.

Other mods are:

Change front L/R caps with Blackgate NP of similar value.
Use Cerafine caps for the L/R buffer opamp of similar value (470uF if I remember correctly)
Change the DAC's power supply caps to blackgate or Silmic of similar value depending on taste (Blackgate is dynamic and clear, Silmic is musical and smooth)
Stack the DAC (ie, solder another one on top in parallel), Quite difficult
Change the main analogue power supply rails to something better ( I use Muse Fine gold)
Change the Large capacitor to a higer quality capacitor with 2-3 times the capacitance and higer voltage rating.
Bypass all key power supply caps on the analog path with small PP or PS capacitors.

There are also quite alot of other small but important mod that my engineers did for me but I cannot remember the details. He even have a ultra high precision clock (2ppm) that is better than the active clocks that many people are marketing as it has much better wave form and unlike those active clock, does not have voltage offset on the clock signals.

Have also done a linear PSU and found some marginal improvement

The result is a player that is really good. Some of my friend who has borrowed it says it is comparable with anything within 6KUSD.

Now that this info is provided to you for free, you can use it to create a mod for the 963sa. Also please charge reasonable price for it for the benefit of the reader here.

 

[scrypt]

Thanks for the mod tips, Xerxes. Sounds as if you ought to go into the business yourself.

To people who have been saying that the 963SA lacks bass; I'd suggest that people assess their other equipment before making that generalization. I've heard the 963 with various systems (most recently, J&R's Parasound pre and amp, and floor-standing Polk speakers -- I wasn't going to buy them and so didn't note which models) and truthfully, I wouldn't want more bass. I'm contemplating buying a Musical Fidelity, in which instance, bass would be something that needed containing if I used another source. Either that, or I'll speak to an emissary of Kim Cattrall's husband (hint: Joseph Audio) about my other choice. I'd love to know whether the rumors flying about regarding Red Rose (Affirmation = Korsum V8i) are true.

I went to J&R yesterday to contemplate buying the 555 (which, by the way, they have in stock and in the demo room). I listened to the Phillips and the 555 side by side. I do appreciate the build quality of the Sony but didn't think the differences so pronounced that the 555 was worth buying.

I've also noticed that I prefer listening to the Philips at 96k upsampling rather than 192k. Detail is one thing. Digital fizz is another.

 

[Xerxes]

You are welcome and I really urge all of you to try the Cardas end caps. The difference is NOT subtle. Also the 963sa will reacts very well to a good power cable.

The 192khz, when activated, will make the noise floor drop another 10-15db in the critical audio range. Hence it is not digital fiz (but the lack of) that you are listening to.

On the other hand, in subjective listening, I feel that the 96khz does indeed have several audible advantage vs the 192khz. It thens to sound better for vocal especially.

I also found that it is also system dependent. If your system tends to be dark, shut-in, far field, then the 192khz will be better. while a more up fronts system will tend to prefer the 96khz.

Hence the beauty of the 963sa is that you are actually getting 3 (44.1, 96, 192khz) subtly different sounding player for the price of one.

 

[spaceman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Xerxes You are welcome and I really urge all of you to try the Cardas end caps. The difference is NOT subtle.

Could you explain this a little further? Is this something that can be done in the home by an average DIYer? Thanks

 

[BDA_ABAT]

spaceman: I think this type of product was what Xerxes was refering to... link

Just pop the caps on the connections that are not being used on the back of the player... super easy, totally reversable, and (fairly) inexpensive tweak!

NOTE: this is NOT an endorsement of the product... I've never tried it.

Bruce

 

[markl]

Cardas makes these little metal covers for your unused RCA jacks on the rear of your gear. The theory is that you close the circuit off from outside interference/contamination by covering up the exposed inputs. For these tiny bits of metal, Cardas certainly make a pretty penny. Cheapest I've found was about $2.50 EACH! Nevertheless I bought them for my new 555ES Hot Rod. can't say if they made a difference, I never A/B'ed. To me this is a tweak for the truly paranoid (like me)

. Probably not the first place one should spend money, but maybe great for when you have a completed fairly high-end-ish system. Others may disagree.

Mark

 

[spaceman]

Thanks guys, I thought he was talking about capping off something internally, so I guess I could handle something like this

I did UG my power cord, and I figured out why my bass seemed a little thin on some recordings. It was the cross-feed, so now I disengage it on a number of my newer cds and sacds. This has been a good learning thread for me.