[Tweertinelle]

Controversy generates interest and that's why flames persist. It's also why I cease to be interested when they do.

Rather than get upset over some low-level thread that seeks its morsels of ire like a bottom-feeder scanning the ocean floor, I find it best to start another thread. If only twenty people view my thread and five respond, that's fine with me. My goal is to connect with people, not use them emotionally. To meet twenty people who are interested in more than controversy -- now that's interaction.

Boredom is the ultimate social critic. The reason moderators need not get involved is because it's we who choose to read and respond in kind. I'd just as soon expect a moderator to fasten my bib at dinner or switch off my CPU.

Don't get me wrong -- I can understand why flames would be upsetting. But why not use aikido instead of karate?

A Crowley quote comes to mind: "By his hand, his end." And another by Gurdjieff: "How can we expect children to behave like anything other than children?" If we know where a confrontational thread is going, no need to stick with it.

(Now if you'll excuse me, I'm about to move to another part of the playground.)

 

[TaffyGuy]

eloquent as usual tweert, and wise beyond my years.

fredpb: i also am subject to rash emotional reactions, but i have not the experience or hardship to give my reaction any meaning or value. having given time to reflect, i understand better your comments and realize that i lack the capacity to feel where you are coming from. the one thing that holds me up is, when adding another perspective, is when comments are directed hurtfully towards other people. i understand now that this is far beyond your intention, and you're feelings on this issue go deeper than any emotion i have yet to experience in my short life. in a sense i am proud of myself for staying out of it and limiting myself to this second thread, where we all can step back and assess the issue more carefully and rationally. my qualms about your post, and the insuing discussion, are from the context of the thread and the idea of rememberance. it can definately be enriching and positive to convey our emotions, especially if there is nowhere else where we can find such a diversity of views and experience from all around the world, and only wished it had been done in a thread devoted to the act of discussion and not respect. it has been cleared up and i thank you for your input and insight into the world that most of us do not want to and will probably never have to face; and thank you for everything you have done for our country and the free world.

and magicthyse, nice try.

 

[mbriant]

The high levels of logic, intelligence, rationality, understanding and compassion, I continue to witness in these forums....especially from some of it's youngest members, never fails to amaze me.

It makes me proud to be a member of Head-Fi.

 

[kelly]

I feel that the style of moderation at Head-Fi is inconsistent. In general, I agree with TaffyGuy's original post.

Here's kind of a wish list.

I wish moderators would actively move posts that stray very far from the thread topic into their own new threads. This could spawn new conversation rather than killing it.

I wish moderators would not take the liberty of stepping in to close a thread in which no rules are being broken. Ie, if two guys want to argue about headphones for six weeks in a thread, let them. If they get repretative or silly, so what? Users can always opt to read a different thread and should excercise this freedom rather than complaining about conversation other people are obviously still enjoying.

I wish when rule-breaking posts were added to a thread that a moderator would snipe them -- move them out of the thread into the moderators area or delete them outright. If necessary, send a warning or rule explanation to the offending poster. What I see instead, and far too often, are moderators hitting the reply button and disrupting the thread with some sort of argument. Several posts later, the moderator will get his last words in and close the thread. This is, for me, the most aggravating aspect of Head-Fi.

I wish also that there actually were a few more rules in place concerning appropriate business behavior on the board. This hasn't really gotten out of control yet but I've seen a few instances go by with nothing said or done. My biggest complaint with AudioAsylum is that every other thread is some con artist trying to hock some cable he's selling by talking about how great it is. If you sell a product, I feel you should have an obligation to make it known that it's a product you sell and the moderators should force you to behave accordingly. (Note: I don't at all mind informative threads like "Here are some pics of my new amp." or "What do you guys think about this product idea?" I like that. I just don't like, "Product A is better than product B" being posted by someone who profits from Product A.

Conversely, I wish moderators would actively snipe any off topic posts to threads in the For Sale section. I really dislike seeing people sale's crapped. I sometimes wish there wasn't even a reply option available in that forum--then questions could be asked privately and the original poster could decide how to update his or her ad.

I wish that ANY scolding of any user was done exclusively in private. Seeing moderators go off on any user, even the really annoying ones, is disheartening. Overall, my feeling is that moderation should be invisible to the end user. Like good IT departments, when they do their job best, you never notice them -- you're just content that everything's going so great.

Above all else, I believe the moderators have an obligation to set an example to other users and wish a handful of them were better at that.

There are a lot of things I like about Head-Fi and most of my complaints can be summarized by the things listed above. I am very happy about the fact that Head-Fi remains overall spam-free and of course have no complaints with the uptime and reliability. I like that even when the users don't know the answers, the moderators make a special effort to get questions answered and point people in the right direction for finding information.

I will not post again on this topic. I apologize to those who took offense. It was offered in sincerity.

 

[mbriant]

I wish Kelly's post actually was sincere and not simply a smoothly-worded, thinly veiled, cheap shot at any moderator(s) he's had personal conflict with in the past.

I will not post again on this topic. I apologize to those who took offense. It was offered in sincerity.

 

[isotope240]

i think that kelly's "cheap shot" might do a good job reflecting some opinions from many of the head-fiers who don't make it a point to kiss moderators' asses whenever the slightest opportunity arises.

 

[jude]

Yeah, the joint ain't perfect, but it's still one of the best forums I visit, in terms of the behavior of members, and how courteous just about everyone is.

Commercial posts in the General Forums (I capitalized "General Forums" because it's now something that's defined in the rules) are becoming more frequent. But, c'mon, we're catching most of them, but it's something that most members won't see. We've even caught shills (commercial interests registering other profiles to post in the guise of very satisfied customers), and have even banned a couple of these -- but you haven't heard about these instances either. If every commercial poster came forward to say, "I've had posts of mine deleted/edited," we'd have one hell of a thread right there. I can say very confidently than we've been more vigilant and effective about it here than any other busy audio forum I've visited.

Long story short, I still marvel at the quality of membership and moderation at Head-Fi. And, no, I'm not patting myself on the back -- actually, I will admit that because of work-related (and some non-work-related) issues, I haven't been able to visit or moderate nearly as often as I would like to for the last few months. I hope that changes soon, but it doesn't look likely any time too soon. I think, based on what I have seen, that the moderators are doing an excellent job considering the very damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't nature of moderating discussion forums.

For the time being, I have a brief wish list:

1. I wish I had faster hardware in place for the forum (we're partially there, and still working on totally completing what I want in that way).
2. I wish every audio forum I visited had members as nice, thoughtful, helpful, and intelligent as so many here seem to be (Nick Dangerous sending out his own vacuum tubes for others to try, members letting other members borrow equipment, in-person get-togethers, longstanding members patiently answering the many questions of newbies, etc.). One of my other favorite audio forums seems to be degenerating into way too many idiotic arguments and troll- and crap-fests.
3. Oh yeah, and I wish at least one person here would quit being such a whiner, and realize that moderating is, again, a very damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't practice that I haven't seen even close to perfected in any other busy forum I visit. For every person who thinks not enough moderation is done, there seems to be least one other who thinks too much moderation is done.

I will not post again on this topic. I apologize to those who took offense. It was offered in sincerity.

 

[M Rael]

Moderating should be done in moderation.

Next?!

 

[MacDEF]

Originally posted by kelly
Quote:

I wish also that there actually were a few more rules in place concerning appropriate business behavior on the board.

You'd be surprised how much the moderators do worry about this topic. If we're missing things, we'd like to know where.


Quote:

Conversely, I wish moderators would actively snipe any off topic posts to threads in the For Sale section. I really dislike seeing people sale's crapped. I sometimes wish there wasn't even a reply option available in that forum--then questions could be asked privately and the original poster could decide how to update his or her ad.

Examples? I've personally deleted many a For Sale thread-crap

But keep in mind, we consider "thread crap" not to be posts requesting more details or clarifications, but rather posts that will adversely affect the potential for a sale/trade/etc.


I put these two together (out of the original order because they are related):

Quote:

What I see instead, and far too often, are moderators hitting the reply button and disrupting the thread with some sort of argument. Several posts later, the moderator will get his last words in and close the thread.

Far too often? Can you provide us with some examples, kelly?

Quote:

Above all else, I believe the moderators have an obligation to set an example to other users and wish a handful of them were better at that.

If you mean "when they have their moderator hat on," I agree. If you mean "in their everyday participation on the boards," remember that many of the moderators are moderators because they are active members. They aren't moderators all the time -- often they are members posting just like you. That means they even have opinions

Sometimes moderators have to act on a thread in which they participated. The question we as moderators have to ask ourselves at that point is "would I do this even if I were not a part of this thread." If the answer is "yes," then we're simply doing our job. For example, I haven't closed many threads at all. But one was a thread where much of the final couple pages was centered around a discussion between myself and scrypt, and replies from others to that discussion. While the debate started marginally on-topic (good headphones for beginners), it wandered off into lengthy discussion that was no longer very relevant to the topic of the thread. In addition, the thread itself was very old, and didn't look like it would ever get back on track. I waited until a few people got their last word in, then posted something to the effect of "it's pretty clear where people stand, doesn't look like further discussion is going to get anywhere, and we're way off the original topic, so let's close this." I then closed it. I was afraid some people would think I was closing it for personal reasons, which is why I didn't say much in that post. But the closing was, IMO, merited. You may disagree, and that's fine -- moderating is a thankless job, no matter how good/bad you are at it. But my main point here was that at that point, I asked myself if I would have closed it had the discussion been between two other people, and the answer was yes.

I don't think I've ever seen a moderator flame someone or post something to get the "last word" in a contentious thread, then close the thread. If I've missed those threads, sorry. I agree that that's not the best course of action

 

[Duncan]

okay... As of right now there have been...

Members: 3,226,
Threads: 16,244,
Posts: 181,425

The forum, as of right now has been open for 450 days, there are 13 moderators, of which a couple only post / view every now and then, and at least one other has gone AWOL...

So, lets just take that down to eight regular moderators...

Whilst purely noted as an average, the ratio of posts / days / moderators is equal to about 50 posts per day per moderator to moderate...

Whilst this might not sound like a lot at face value, ask yourself how we as moderators know where the bad threads are?... We don't have a tally of who has checked what threads / posts... It is simply a matter of which forums we visit, and which threads we read...

I'd personally like to think that we do a good job as moderators, but if we're not... then tell us!!

'Report This Post To A Moderator', as I said before, this link is on every single last post on this bulletin board... yeah, there is some typing to do... but all you guys hitting off at how bad the moderators are here... help us to help you, and click that link when you see things spiralling out of control!!

In all my time as a moderator (since the forums opened) I have seen no more than... five warnings of bad posts, now wouldn't that seem to you if you were in my shoes, that apart from the potential problems I, or the other mods see... that everything is running well?

It takes two to tango, and whilst yes... we as moderators are supposed to be on the ball, i'll be the first to admit that we do slip up... so, instead of criticising us all the time, help us to make this a better place, and hit that link!!

Thanks

 

[pigmode]

What problems? Head-Fi has always been a great place for me, so I have no idea what the original post of this thread is all about. IMO, the mods and administrators here are doing a great job.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Going out to everybody in general...

One of the most common complaints among moderators is "damn, I missed out on the good stuff!" That is to say, all the moderators are on such a vigilant watch, and online so much, that anything bad that shows up tends to get whisked away within minutes of it being posted. On that front, I really see no problems, and think we're doing a pretty damned good job at that.

Regarding the For Sale forum...I think that is one of the most highly watched forums by moderators. Very little is tolerated there due to the exchange of money. I've occasionally sniped out posts on there myself, and have seen thread craps sniped out of there not long after seeing them if I haven't acted on it right away. If it's out of place, it will be sniped, but the occasional "YGPM" or condolences for why a sale happens doesn't exactly kill anybody. So far I see no problems within there. As Duncan said though, it helps if anything bad is reported, or a PM sent to any one of the mods. Much of my sniping is done as a direct response to a report or PM.

The final point is as Mac said: we are mods, but we are also participators in this forum. I'll admit I've spent 15 mins or more typing in a nasty response only to delete it and not post it, because of my mod tag. But if any of us do flip out, just remember that we're here for discussions too. We can and will get as passionate about a topic as many others can or have. In the course of normal discussions, I pretty much don't even remember my mod tag. I'd imagine it's the same for all the other mods.

What I get the impression that we're being asked of is to step back entirely, and not participate in threads, which I notice is how the moderators on Audio Asylum operate. Simply hand men the fire to play with, watch from overhead, and throw lightning bolts at those who can't play with the fire correctly.

Is this what people want? I'm curious to know really.

 

[Neruda]

okay, to anyone who has a problem with what we moderators do on the forums:

first off, we do a lot here. Most of the problems that head-fi encounters are fixed before you see it. Then when we miss things, many take that as a sign that we're not doing our jobs. We're only human, people! we can only catch so many of the problems a forum of this size encounters.

secondly, suppose we worked even harder and moved around every single thing, edited or deleted every flamebait post, deleted every thread someone doesn't like. then what would happen? you'd accuse us of overstepping our boundaries and violating your first amendment rights. heck, it's happened already!

I feel, and you can call me biased if you want, that we moderators have been doing a pretty good job. Keep in mind that as a moderator, I tend to see more of the problems on this forum firsthand than the average member. We have to make some hard decisions sometimes, because not every situation is clear-cut and simple. And we can't please everyone. But we're trying our best, and I think it shows.

So in conclusion, I wish (kelly) that anyone who wants to gripe about the lousy job we're doing would stop and think of what head-fi might be like if we weren't here at all.

http://pub29.ezboard.com/fminidiscla...picID=28.topic

(the funny thing about that link is it was the first thing I found after doing a totally arbitrary search for "MZR-900 opinions" just now. I remembered seeing some really vulgar threads on MD forums, so I decided to look for one to compare to head-fi. they didn't disappoint.)

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 I'll admit I've spent 15 mins or more typing in a nasty response only to delete it and not post it, because of my mod tag.

I think that's probably true of most of the mods, Vert

Quote:

We can and will get as passionate about a topic as many others can or have.

Right -- we're moderators because we're passionate about the topic. We don't get paid, and what benefits do we get other than feeling like we're helping to keep Head-Fi one of the best forums on the 'net? If we didn't love the topics discussed here, it would be pretty awful to read so many threads every day

 

[JMT]

Quote:

we're moderators because we're passionate about the topic. We don't get paid

I guess a raise is out of the question then.