[Shike]

Glad deadlylover finally got what we were talking about, I already knew his associated headphones.  The funny thing is I'm the one defending lower price gear like the K601, which is really a marvel at its price .. though there's some higher price ones like the HD800 too in the category.
 
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The Stax Omega 2 certainly is not something I'd call very colored. It's not quite neutral/accurate, but it gets closer than most headphones out there. I have EQ'd my Stax 007 mk2 and got it to sound fairly neutral, but even without EQ, I enjoy its sound enough to often listen to it without EQ. The LCD-2 is the same way, although it's a bit more neutral than the 007mk2 in general. The HD650 is also pretty good, except for the lack of authoritative sub-bass. It's harder for me to listen to the HD650 without EQ though, because I really need that sub-bass presence in order to feel like I'm listening to a full-range system. Even just watching movies or playing games, the HD650 doesn't reproduce the oomph in the explosions and rumbles to a satisfying degree. 

Measurements wise, most of these aren't flat by DF equalization.  One thing I do want to mention is sub-bass "oomph", technically headphones shouldn't have it in a lot of ways.  Most of those frequencies are felt and not heard when using speakers, so not having it is technically accurate within the limitations of headphones.  There's ways to try to emulate it, but it can cause other issues with headphone design by doing that.
 

 

[maverickronin]

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Measurements wise, most of these aren't flat by DF equalization.  One thing I do want to mention is sub-bass "oomph", technically headphones shouldn't have it in a lot of ways.  Most of those frequencies are felt and not heard when using speakers, so not having it is technically accurate within the limitations of headphones.  There's ways to try to emulate it, but it can cause other issues with headphone design by doing that.

This is where things get interesting.  Headphones inherently involve trade offs and different people prefer to sacrifice different things.

 

[Deep Funk]

The HD800 is still overpriced in my opinion. As much as I was impressed with it...
 
Once you have tried some older 'studio headphones' you often notice how far ahead some headphone manufacturers were at some point.
 
Neutral, accurate? Each headphone manufacturer has its own interpretation with those words and all you have to do is choose what you like and as such I will for instance not let go of my Pioneer Monitor 10. 

 

[Shike]

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The HD800 is still overpriced in my opinion. As much as I was impressed with it...
 
Once you have tried some older 'studio headphones' you often notice how far ahead some headphone manufacturers were at some point.
 
Neutral, accurate? Each headphone manufacturer has its own interpretation with those words and all you have to do is choose what you like and as such I will for instance not let go of my Pioneer Monitor 10. 

 
I always wanted a pair of Monitor 10's, but they're a bit too pricey for an older used phone IMO.  You're right about some older cans being ahead of their time (DT48).
 

 
 

 

[weechuen]

extremely interesting article, especially about the range part.
And I've learnt something new called the anechoic chambers.

 

[RexAeterna]

i didn't read it all but i know what you mean(about accurate means no sound signature) and i always knew this since i first was into music since i was little. music is music and natural/accuracy just means one thing. play as it's intended. that's why i'm never good at explaining things here or any audiophile site where they use terms to describe the sound. to me it either sounds good or doesn't. it either sounds right or it doesn't. music is just music. i just like things that just do their job and do it right. if i want something to sound musical then i will listen to something musical. if i want something euphoric i will listen to something euphoric. i don't want something that makes everything i hear musical or euphoric. i like music to talk to me.

i also agree with uncle erik. you do not need to spend large amount of money to get transparent gear. there is always deals on used and vintage gear that are very transparent and very accurate. you can be right in some way about the sub bass presence but that is really not a problem since most recordings don't go past about 38hz and the only man made instrument in the fundamental frequency range capable of hitting the deep sub-bass region is 64ft-128ft pipe organs which lot of people really don't mention or listen to. there is lot of speakers that measure flat. the problem most likely becomes the room it's in and headphones, there are few out their that actually do measure very flat but lot of them are discontinued and not heard of. accuracy is out there. you just have to search for it. just everyone is different so it can be longer journey for others to find it.

i really enjoyed your wright up tho. nice work and was enjoyable to read.

 

[bigshot]

There aren't a lot of speakers that measure flat. I don't know of any flat speakers. But there are quite a few speakers that can be calibrated to have a flat response with equalization. EQ is even more importantthan room treatment in my opinion.

 

[Shike]

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There aren't a lot of speakers that measure flat. I don't know of any flat speakers. But there are quite a few speakers that can be calibrated to have a flat response with equalization. EQ is even more importantthan room treatment in my opinion.

 
NHT xd system used calibration for flat response by default, shame it was discontinued.

 

[bigshot]

I've always found that automated calibration using pink noise only gets you in te ballpark. It is far from perfect.

 

[khaos974]

There are some relatively inexpensive speakers that measure flat (in an anechoic chamber), for example, the Neumann KH120 is flat within +- 1dB 60 to 20,000 Hz.

 

[Lunatique]

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Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
One thing I do want to mention is sub-bass "oomph", technically headphones shouldn't have it in a lot of ways.  Most of those frequencies are felt and not heard when using speakers, so not having it is technically accurate within the limitations of headphones.  There's ways to try to emulate it, but it can cause other issues with headphone design by doing that.
 

 
While you might not be able to feel the lowest sub-bass, you can definitely still hear them, and then will still vibrate your eardrums. It's just kind of disconnected to the rest of your body, that's all (which takes away some of the satisfaction).
 
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you can be right in some way about the sub bass presence but that is really not a problem since most recordings don't go past about 38hz and the only man made instrument in the fundamental frequency range capable of hitting the deep sub-bass region is 64ft-128ft pipe organs which lot of people really don't mention or listen to. there is lot of speakers that measure flat. the problem most likely becomes the room it's in and headphones, there are few out their that actually do measure very flat but lot of them are discontinued and not heard of. accuracy is out there. you just have to search for it. just everyone is different so it can be longer journey for others to find it.
 

Actually, lots of instruments reach past 38Hz and lower. Composers, arrangers/orchestrators, mixing/mastering engineers are kind of obsessed about this stuff because it is part of the knowledge and craft of making better music. Take a look at this example: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
 
And that doesn't even take into consideration of lots of modern instruments and styles like heavy guitar tuned low, 5-string electric bass, various booming bass drums, and of course, the synthesizer. Even if you are just listening to typical acoustic music, pop music, or whatever, chances are they will reach past 38Hz.
 
Do this experiment--download a reliable spectrum analyzer such as Voxengo's SPAN, and then listen to a bunch of different types of music. You'll be surprised at how low most musical materials reach. This is especially true for certain genres of music, but also true if you are just watching movies or playing video games, as there will be lots of sound effects and deep ambient tones in the score. Today, we no longer just listen to music with our headphones, but use them for all kinds of multimedia, so it's crucial that our audio playback systems can handle full range audio reproduction.
 
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There aren't a lot of speakers that measure flat. I don't know of any flat speakers. But there are quite a few speakers that can be calibrated to have a flat response with equalization. EQ is even more importantthan room treatment in my opinion.

In the pro audio world, the high-end speaker monitors measure pretty much ruler flat. Take a look at Klein + Hummel's frequency response charts for their monitoring speakers--they are **** impressive, especially the larger systems or the smaller systems paired with subs.
 
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I've always found that automated calibration using pink noise only gets you in te ballpark. It is far from perfect.

The IK Multimedia ARC System I use has a calibration method where it plays 3 bursts of test tones from each speaker and you place a measuring mic at the location of your listening position, as well as variant positions within the usual head and body movements while at that position. It does a pretty amazing job.
 
 

 

[LFF]

Quote:

The IK Multimedia ARC System I use has a calibration method where it plays 3 bursts of test tones from each speaker and you place a measuring mic at the location of your listening position, as well as variant positions within the usual head and body movements while at that position. It does a pretty amazing job.
 
 

That system is actually really, really good. For under $400 you can get a HUGE improvement in sound. Well worth the money IMHO.
 
 

 

[RexAeterna]

There aren't a lot of speakers that measure flat. I don't know of any flat speakers. But there are quite a few speakers that can be calibrated to have a flat response with equalization. EQ is even more importantthan room treatment in my opinion.

most speakers can measure flat and lot do but from 50hz-20khz. lot of vintage speakers measured from that spectrum but more modern speakers have more of dip in the high-end like lot of headphones to prevent it sounding ''bright'' but that can be solved with some simple acoustic treatment. i never use eq much so i can't say but i find the room is defiantly one of the most important aspect for speakers and it's not very expensive either to do room treatment yourself. you don't need that acoustic foam they sell online. materials from home dept or home goods store like fiber glass,carpet or mineral wool works wonders and make the biggest difference in the world i personally think. eq is only necessary if your room is incapable of being treated i believe.i just never understood tho why would someone spend good money on speakers and disregard their room completely. i see it all the time.


@Lunatique


that is interesting. i only knew about the pipe organ going low but their is a few there i know but didn't know they can be tuned that low. i'll try what you suggested but still i guess it's very rare for these instruments to actually be recorded this low. i also know about lot of synths. just most of the time even in mainstream rap you'll barely see anything down below 30hz since most of it eq'ed to give that gangsta trunk farting slam.(sorry if i'm not making sense in some sentences. just very tired.)

 

[Sil3nce]

Great read and very interesting approach to it. Needless to say more headfi'ers should be made aware of this. But these days it's more about paraphernalia themselves instead of the pursuit of neutrality. And it's easy to understand why. Most recordings and popular music are far from balanced/ transparent. And few people have actually heard a system that has achieved that inner circle you mention. Sound is equivalent to semantics.

 

[bigshot]

Speakers don't measure flat. The techniques used to measure them make them flat. It's all a trick done for the sake of sales brochures. Two speakers - two manufacturers - same specs - totally different sound. Speaker specs are about as reliable as a crackhead's promise.

The reason EQ is more important than room treatment is, if you have a reasonably large good sounding room, EQ can get you to the spot where it sounds like the band is playing in your particular room. It doesn't matter if the sound reflections change a bit in different spots in the room, because that is the exact same change that would occur if the performers were playing live in the room with you. These sorts of natural psychoacoustic environmental clues can't be synthesized effectively, even with the most sophisticated mix and most elaborate room treatments. It's one of the reasons speakers sound more natural than headphones. The aural shape of the room matches what you see with your eyes.

Room treatment is important if you've got reflections bouncing around too many times. I was lucky because my listening has a high raftered ceiling and the walls and roof are soft knotty pine panelling. If it was concrete walls or a low overhead, it would be different.