[Oya?]

Saying this in the portable amps forum is probably akin to heresy, but do try a few more portables and then if you still don't think it's doing enough, move up to entry level desktop amps.

I mean, you're using your Mini with a PC anyway! Pick one that has a built in DAC to keep things simple and cut costs, unless you want to splurge.

Admittedly I've only had two portable amps, but they are pretty popular and oft-raved ones; a Corda 2Move and a RSA Hornet. Neither did very much used with an iPod. The 2Move was somewhat better used as a DAC/amp with my PC. Neither did anything close to what I'd expected from reading reviews and impressions.

 

[kilgoretrout]

Honestly, I'm more worried about feeling like an idiot after spending a lot of money on a high-end amp or DAC than I am about the money.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Find out what headphones you want to use first and then search a decent amp that pairs nicely with it. Start with decent cans first then a decent amp IMO

 

[kilgoretrout]

I've already got decent cans, Beyerdynamic DT-990s

 

[BIG POPPA]

You have a lot of homework to do.

 

[Oya?]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilgoretrout /img/forum/go_quote.gif Honestly, I'm more worried about feeling like an idiot after spending a lot of money on a high-end amp or DAC than I am about the money.

If you live somewhere where there are meets, there's no better time make use of it.

Where I'm stuck at, it's hard to audition any good headphone gear. I can only buy gear based on the hyperbolic recommendations that gets thrown around here, so I always brace myself for disappointment. So far I think I'm doing pretty good and am very happy with my mid-fi setup.

But I feel the same way as you, regarding the lack of reliable studies around amps, sources etc.; there's been a few DBT studies involving amps, which, despite being scientifically sound, unfortunately gets quickly shouted down.

 

[scompton]

Unfortunately, the only DBT studies of amps I've seen are for speaker amps, not headphone amps.

Also, some amps don't pair well with some headphones. It's been stated here numerous times and I was somewhat skeptical, but I recently experienced it. One of the headphones I have at work is the HD580. I use an XM4 with a wall wart to drive it. It's not a bad combination although the HD580 is not my favorite headphone. I recently brought the HD580 home where I use an NAD 3155 as my headphone amp. The HD580 sounded incredibly bad out of the NAD.

The opposite is true with my DT831. It sounds mediocre out of a portable amp and wonderful out of the NAD.

 

[kilgoretrout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oya? /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you live somewhere where there are meets, there's no better time make use of it. Where I'm stuck at, it's hard to audition any good headphone gear. I can only buy gear based on the hyperbolic recommendations that gets thrown around here, so I always brace myself for disappointment. So far I think I'm doing pretty good and am very happy with my mid-fi setup. But I feel the same way as you, regarding the lack of reliable studies around amps, sources etc.; there's been a few DBT studies involving amps, which, despite being scientifically sound, unfortunately gets quickly shouted down.

I'll be on the look out for meets, but that's kind of a long term thing.

Can you point me to the threads that discuss DBT studies?

 

[Oya?]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilgoretrout /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll be on the look out for meets, but that's kind of a long term thing. Can you point me to the threads that discuss DBT studies?

You'll have to forgive me as I can't locate the original thread discussion; this is the best link I have now and is worth a read. They are as scompton pointed out speaker amps, not headphone amps. On page 6 is a results chart, and on page 7 they have the usual audiophile garble that accompanied the non-blind listening sessions, which is a fun read.

One of the original studies was carried out by Stereophile (!) it seems.

A brief Google search brings up articles and forum discussions bashing these studies, usually along the lines of "the ABX shows that there is no difference, but we know there is a difference! Therefore the ABX is wrong and flawed."

 

[kilgoretrout]

Is there any scientifically sound evidence that supports that ABX is flawed?

 

[JamesL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oya? /img/forum/go_quote.gif A brief Google search brings up articles and forum discussions bashing these studies, usually along the lines of "the ABX shows that there is no difference, but we know there is a difference! Therefore the ABX is wrong and flawed."

Hah. That's cause the abx-believers aren't looking at the whole picture.
42% of the performance is a result of your headphones. source/amp takes 7%, cables/etc takes a fraction of a percent, and the last 50% is purely psychological.

At least that's what I've observed from being a headfi member for so long.

 

[itsborken]

If you have a decent DVD player get an appropriate RCA-mini cable and play a CD through it. That should help you isolate if the issue is the soundcard or not. If they sound the same to you, then the HP are the culprit. Sound quality (soundstage, prat, etc) is completely dependent on the weakest link in your audio chain.

don't know if anyone answered your current question but ample current is what is converted to power that moves the diaphram that produces the sound. More and better controlled current = better presentation.

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilgoretrout /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll be on the look out for meets, but that's kind of a long term thing. Can you point me to the threads that discuss DBT studies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oya? /img/forum/go_quote.gif A brief Google search brings up articles and forum discussions bashing these studies, usually along the lines of "the ABX shows that there is no difference, but we know there is a difference! Therefore the ABX is wrong and flawed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilgoretrout /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is there any scientifically sound evidence that supports that ABX is flawed?

kilgoretrout, I missed your post while on vacation. This is the DBT I've seen on digital amps SHOOTOUT2007. They also have a power amp shoot out AmpSHOOTOUTPowerAmps.


What Oya says. Basically, ABX/DBT gets bashed by people who have a vested interest in there being a difference. By vested interest, I don't necessarily mean monetary interest. It sometimes is just they believe so hard they can't except contradiction. They come up with excuses of why the DBT is not valid, not comfortable environment, switches degrading signal, etc.

That said, what DBT/ABX does is show that people can hear a difference. It doesn't say which is better. The links above just show what amps the majority of the participants preferred. Another group might have come out with a different result, especially a different group of audiophiles. The results are awful close in those shoot outs though. After reading this, I ended up buying a Sonic Impact Super T to drive my stats and was very happy with it.

IMO, if at all possible, you should do your own DBT/ABX. It's hard to do with equipment, so I've never done it. I have done it with lossy bit rates and I've never been able to tell the difference between 128kbps and lossless. Here's the best thread I've seen on this http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/pu...r-ears-250237/

There are some threads on jitter with excellent posts by NickCharles that refer to scientific studies of at what level people can hear jitter.

There's also going to be a new forum where scientific testing will be the main thrust. There are 4 current threads in the members forum about the new forum.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/ob...-forum-351849/

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/ob...itions-352743/

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/ob...ations-352967/

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/ob...r-name-353315/

 

[Slaughter]

OP, you are putting too much thought into FR. I would wager that almost all amps are flat through the audible frequency spectrum with possible roll of on the extreme high and low end. FR for amps is not like it is with headphones/speakers. You are not going to have peaks and valleys when looking at an amps FR graph. For example, the M3 amp is considered a warm sounding amp, but it is flat as a board. The sound of an amp has little to nothing to do with FR.

 

[kilgoretrout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaughter /img/forum/go_quote.gif OP, you are putting too much thought into FR. I would wager that almost all amps are flat through the audible frequency spectrum with possible roll of on the extreme high and low end. FR for amps is not like it is with headphones/speakers. You are not going to have peaks and valleys when looking at an amps FR graph. For example, the M3 amp is considered a warm sounding amp, but it is flat as a board. The sound of an amp has little to nothing to do with FR.

I cannot separate the concepts of warm sounding and frequency response from each other. Can you show me otherwise?

scompton,
The amp shout out link you provided says that their test is single blind. Also, I understand that DBT will not show which is better, but it may show that there is a difference; however, I haven't seen anything that shows that there is a difference.

I have played around with the ABX tool found in foobar, but I have not experimented with such tests for amps as I only have one amp. Also, I would need an accurate SPL meter to match sound levels. Do you know what measured difference in SPL is considered inaudible? I would expect that I would need a very accurate (and expensive) meter to match levels precisely.