[Andrea]

I wanted to report a brief experience...


I just listened to my brother's Samsung 20 GB DAP (playing .wav songs by XTC & John Mellencamp) with & without the PengAmp in between, and with the ATH-M40fs headphones terminating the 'chain'.


With the PengAmp (LM6171) the sound was powerful and full with really punchy and deep bass, and an interesting "air". But it was NOT timbrally accurate. The balance turned somewhat sombre, and the colors nearly dead cold, losing the DAP's heaphone out's (yup, no line out) own luminous and immediate, genuine sonic character. Thus, all things considered, definitely the headphones sounded better without the amp for my ears.


My conclusion mirrored what I had gathered from the standard vs. modded Go-Vibe v5 -- the LM6171/2 are NOT timbrally natural and accurate, they have a strong, peculiar own signature (somewhat unmusical, if you ask me) that they impose on the sound. Just so other people like me are informed.

 

[DDF]

About to buy a pair of DT250-250s, we'll see if we agree on this one Andrea. I still can't tell if that peculiar signature I'm hearing is the Go-vibe or the DT770s.

 

[Filburt]

You keep saying this, and I keep failing to experience the same. I find the LM6171/2 rather musical and lively. I'm currently using LM6171s for I/V on my DAC as they're one of the most natural and energetic options I have available.

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDF About to buy a pair of DT250-250s, we'll see if we agree on this one Andrea. I still can't tell if that peculiar signature I'm hearing is the Go-vibe or the DT770s.

As far as the Go-Vibe is concerned, I think it's partly the amp's topology and partly the LM6172. The LM6172's own sound signature seems 'brought to the extreme' by the Go-Vibe's design. In fact, something of the Go-Vibe's original character has remained even now that I've changed all op-amps! And the Xenos with the same op-amp (AD8397 and AD45048 are exactly the same thing, so they say) sounds different, more natural to me, more liquid and a little bit warmer...

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt You keep saying this, and I keep failing to experience the same. I find the LM6171/2 rather musical and lively. I'm currently using LM6171s for I/V on my DAC as they're one of the most natural and energetic options I have available.

You focus on "lively" and "energetic" - we define "musical" differently. The lack of musicality I perceive in these chips, which I might relate to their not being properly audio chips, is a subtle thing anyway. But it turns out to be important for me.

 

[Andrea]

Note that, by using a headphone (not line) out, I could directly compare the sound with & without the amp in the signal path -- this is what allowed what for me is a loss of naturalness to clearly show.

 

[Azure]

When are you getting a home amp, Andrea? It just seems weird to see a
Headphoneus Supremus with nearly 4k posts driving a pair of HD650s with a simple Go-Vibe or Xenos 0HA-REP. Have you ever attended a meet or anything or heard an HD650 driven by a Class A amp?

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure When are you getting a home amp, Andrea? It just seems weird to see a Headphoneus Supremus with nearly 4k posts driving a pair of HD650s with a simple Go-Vibe or Xenos 0HA-REP. Have you ever attended a meet or anything or heard an HD650 driven by a Class A amp?

I don't care much if I'm breaking some forum's habit by that

But I can't deny that I'd like to try a few home amps. I had a Shellbrook The Ascent for a little while, which was class-A biased. It was very good, but modding those portable amps has produced convincing results nonetheless, not necessarily inferior. For the current state of my wallet, that is.

 

[kugino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure When are you getting a home amp, Andrea? It just seems weird to see a Headphoneus Supremus with nearly 4k posts driving a pair of HD650s with a simple Go-Vibe or Xenos 0HA-REP. Have you ever attended a meet or anything or heard an HD650 driven by a Class A amp?

just b/c someone has a certain number of posts it doesn't mean he/she should also have pricey equipment, as if pricey equipment is always an indicator of good sound.

i'm quite a fan of these smaller DIY-type amps as well and some can perform quite well. yes, i've owned and listened to big, powerful, expensive amps...some which were fantastic and some which weren't as good as my little PINT here. just saying...

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kugino just b/c someone has a certain number of posts it doesn't mean he/she should also have pricey equipment, as if pricey equipment is always an indicator of good sound. i'm quite a fan of these smaller DIY-type amps as well and some can perform quite well. yes, i've owned and listened to big, powerful, expensive amps...some which were fantastic and some which weren't as good as my little PINT here. just saying...

Oh yep! Well said.

I have the same weakness for small yet capable things (amps). And headphone amps have a right to be small...

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea the LM6171/2 are NOT timbrally natural and accurate, they have a strong, peculiar own signature (somewhat unmusical, if you ask me) that they impose on the sound.

Hogwash, utter hogwash. The LM6171 can be "extremely" musical depending on what circuit they are in and assuming that circuit is "optimized" around the LM6171. To point blank state the LM6171 are not accurate and have a strong, "peculiar" signature based on your experience of them in a Go-Vibe is, IMO, not an accurate statement.

Sure, they may not sound too clever in your particular amp as it's very likely your amp isn't optimised for them but that doesn't mean they will perform the same in other amps. They're a very cranky chip but tame them in a well thought out circuit and they're one of the most neutral and detailed audio chips on the planet.

Maybe I misunderstood you and you were referring to them as being unmusical in the Go-Vibe but if you're saying they're not musical "period" then I disagree wholeheartedly.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea You focus on "lively" and "energetic" - we define "musical" differently. The lack of musicality I perceive in these chips, which I might relate to their not being properly audio chips, is a subtle thing anyway. But it turns out to be important for me.

I'm not focusing on anything in particular. I just don't agree with your description and am starting to question your test methodology. Testing it out of the headphone amp isn't providing a control. The internal headphone amp probably still drives a high impedance load better than a load impedance load, and on DAPs I'd suspect they don't drive headphones of substantial size particularly well at all. I don't know what it is you do with your amps or headphones, but you're the only person I can recall that has so adamantly described the LM6171/2 as lacking musicality or being cold. What you're perceiving as colour or whatever from the headphone out may simply be harmonic distortion from driving the load poorly.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kugino just b/c someone has a certain number of posts it doesn't mean he/she should also have pricey equipment, as if pricey equipment is always an indicator of good sound. i'm quite a fan of these smaller DIY-type amps as well and some can perform quite well. yes, i've owned and listened to big, powerful, expensive amps...some which were fantastic and some which weren't as good as my little PINT here. just saying...

I'm just saying it's a little strange, in my eyes, for someone to be driving a pair of HD650s with a (relatively) cheap portable amp as their main rig. I would understand if you strictly wanted a portable rig, but then I'd think that you'd eventually look into higher end portable amps, rather than constantly moving around and buying amps in this (relatively) low price range.

Of course pricey equipment isn't always an indicator of good sound, but that doesn't mean that it usually isn't, right (Not talking about mainstream products here)? Just looking in the scope of headphone amps used/mentioned on this website...the Go-Vibe and Xenos are in the lower end, no? I'd just think that if you're here so long, if your main headphone is a pair of HD650s (I believe something not as easily driven as your HF-1, I think), that'd you eventually buy a fair priced home amp, or at least a higher end portable amp. It's just a little strange to see him still buying/showing undivided interest in these (relatively) cheap, budget amps when he probably could have bought a higher end home/portable amp with this money. It's one thing to not be interested in more expensive home amps due to the price/performance ratio, it's another thing to only be interested in these budget amps and only buying these kinds of amps.

Of course, he could just be obsessed with these (relatively) cheap portable amps. And of course not a lot of people have this obsession. Hence why I think it's a bit strange...

Oh, and Andrea, you could quote multiple people by clicking on that quote button (to the right of the insert image button) when you are typing up your post; simply copy and paste the person you are quoting in this field. You can also edit your post (There should be a button in the lower right hand corner of your post) if you forgot or just thought of something.

Oh, and for clarification, by "cheap" I was referring to price, in case you didn't figure it out.

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd Hogwash, utter hogwash. The LM6171 can be "extremely" musical depending on what circuit they are in and assuming that circuit is "optimized" around the LM6171. To point blank state the LM6171 are not accurate and have a strong, "peculiar" signature based on your experience of them in a Go-Vibe is, IMO, not an accurate statement. Sure, they may not sound too clever in your particular amp as it's very likely your amp isn't optimised for them but that doesn't mean they will perform the same in other amps. They're a very cranky chip but tame them in a well thought out circuit and they're one of the most neutral and detailed audio chips on the planet. Maybe I misunderstood you and you were referring to them as being unmusical in the Go-Vibe but if you're saying they're not musical "period" then I disagree wholeheartedly.

No, both concerned amps (Pengamp and Go-Vibe v5) were designed around the LM6171/2 (no rolling), so those (well known) issues were surely addressed.


I partly stated, partly implied, that "the LM6171/2 is somewhat unmusical for my ears when used to drive headphones directly", nothing more. Buffered, and maybe class A biased, things may very well change for the better. I already felt like that must be the case...

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt I'm not focusing on anything in particular. I just don't agree with your description and am starting to question your test methodology. Testing it out of the headphone amp isn't providing a control. The internal headphone amp probably still drives a high impedance load better than a load impedance load, and on DAPs I'd suspect they don't drive headphones of substantial size particularly well at all. I don't know what it is you do with your amps or headphones, but you're the only person I can recall that has so adamantly described the LM6171/2 as lacking musicality or being cold. What you're perceiving as colour or whatever from the headphone out may simply be harmonic distortion from driving the load poorly.

I don't pretend that you (or anyone) come to agree with me... but I know what I do, hear, and your interpretation isn't fitting.

Just btw - this particular DAP (model name is YH-J70 I think) has proved to have a good, musical and powerful (20 mW on 32 ohm), internal headphone amp, and the ATH-M40fs is 60 ohm and efficient more than enough. I said "all things considered it sounds better to me", not "I don't hear a difference", nor "it makes the amp totally worthless"