[rsaavedra]

* WATCH OUT: MOVIE SPOILER *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears Your comparison to Schindler's list is odious and far off the mark!

I think you are off mark about the point I was making. Weren't the topics of racism, antisemitism, and mass murder portrayed/explored visually and thematically in Shindler's list? Wasn't euthanasia portrayed/explored in MDB? That's the analogy I was making. Don't see how in the first Spielberg doesn't seem to "exploit" those topics, while in the second Clint seems to be exploiting euthanasia for you. That's all I meant. Wasn't making an assessment of the main goal/theme of Shindler's list or whatnot. Could have chosen some other movie and topics portrayed/explored in it to show the analogy (e.g. "Requiem for a Dream" and drug addiction), and wonder why there wouldn't be exploitation there, while in MDB there is for you.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra I think you are off mark about the point I was making. Weren't the topics of racism, antisemitism, and mass murder portrayed/explored visually and thematically in Shindler's list? Wasn't euthanasia portrayed/explored in MDB? That's the analogy I was making. Don't see how in the first Spielberg doesn't seem to "exploit" those topics, while in the second Clint seems to be exploiting euthanasia for you. That's all I meant. Wasn't making an assessment of the main goal/theme of Shindler's list or whatnot. Could have chosen some other movie and topics portrayed/explored in it to show the analogy (e.g. "Requiem for a Dream" and drug addiction), and wonder why there wouldn't be exploitation there, while in MDB there is for you.

Yes, the questions of racism and mass murder were explored in Schindler's List. Euthanasia was not explored so much as exploited in Million Dollar Baby. It was used as a dramatic device to give the movie an ending. Nowhere in MDB do they actually explore the options availalbe to Maggie. She is euthanized when most depressed, and she was shown incapable of leaving her bed at all. There are quadriplegics who surf! Others such as Christopher Reeves and Stephen MacDonald have made similar injuries the starting point of an exploration of life's alternatives. No where in this movie do they ever show Maggie exploring the possibilities of more than passivity. they never show her leaving that bed, and that is the biggest distortion that the movie makes. That is the biggest failing of the movie: it tries to demonstrate how useless and utterly without value the life of a quadraplegic is. That the audience cheers when Dunn kills her is a mark of how deeply the audiences emotion's have been manipulated. That so few take offense at the appalling ending reflects how skillfully Eastwood has sold his agenda.

You may argue from today to next year about whether this movie is a thoughtful exploration of questions such as euthanasia, but the truth is that it does not explore anything. It only presents one scenario and that scenario is distorted and false.

 

[rsaavedra]

* WATCH OUT: MOVIE SPOILER *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears Yes, the questions of racism and mass murder were exploredNo where in this movie do they ever show Maggie exploring the possibilities of more than passivity. they never show her leaving that bed, and that is the biggest distortion that the movie makes.

Sorry, but *that* is precisely an exploration, it's just a "distortion" for you because you didn't like it.

Since when a movie has to show all alternatives to one condition of life? Since when not showing all possible alternatives is a distortion? Since when showing the director's/author's choice of a reality is a distortion? I'm afraid you seem to have quite a distorted idea of what a drama movie is supposed to be.

Precisely it is portraying *one* possibility, one that can happen in life. It's not the only one for sure, it's not a happy one, it might offend many people that such a course of action was taken by those characters, it's one possibility that many wouldn't like, or wouldn't take. It's up to the audience to *react* to the movie whichever way their emotions choose to, but it's not a flaw in the movie at all (or in the book where it came from, which I haven't read though) to display one possible, and in fact likely, angle of reality. Despite the fact that there could be other not so unhappy, depressing possible endings. There's nothing new under the sun in this.

Displaying *that* specific angle, making the actors portray that angle realistically, and causing the subsequent emotions in the audience, *that* was precisely the intended *exploration* for this movie. You seem to be misusing the word "exploration" as if it should be some sort of survey of possible outcomes, or as if the movie/book/play should necessarily choose one of the optimist uplifting outcomes, or one that would appeal most to you. That is a very narrow minded and self-centered approach to a drama I must say.

Also, in my opinion euthanasia wasn't just a dramatic device to give the movie an ending. It was the very essence of the movie to show the incredible emotional tension and moral dilemma of the characters when forced to confront euthanasia as a possible way out of her unnacceptable reality.

Remember again, you might not like the fact that it was unnaceptable for her, but you can't change that fact, that's what the author and the movie is telling us. In reality people do commit suicide even not being paralyzed, so it's not so unrealistic, it is a terrible outcome, but not an unlikely one. She chose that outcome, it is her decision. You can't change people's emotions again. The movie just shows one girl's take on life given her situation, not yours, not any real veteran's, just one character in the author's mind. There's nothing distorted about that.

 

[Bunnyears]

Movies obviously are not supposed to be historic documents. No one is stating that it has to be completely accurate, but without background knowledge of quadriplegia, it is impossible for the movie goer to understand how very distorted the view of a quadraplegic is. Watching this movie in a vacuum without reference or context makes the viewer even more susceptible to manipulation. To be a critical viewer you need to take everything that you know about life and use it. If, for some reason, a movie allows you to forget or suspend disbelief, that is the mark of a well made film. If in this process, the movie makes you forget things that you should never forget, then the movie verges on propaganda and exploitation. That is the problem with MDB. The audience is never given the information to assess Maggie's situation and instead is manipulated into thinking that being euthanized is a good ending. It is that very failure of critical awareness that the audience is robbed of that I find so very objectionable. Just look at your own argument that the movie is a thoughtful exploration of euthanasia when it presents so little to think about. You have reacted in the predictable way. Most of the audience when I was at the theater reacted in the same way. One of my daughters also reacted that way. Applause when Maggie is knocking out her opponent, horror when she is so unfairly brought down, and finally pity and resignation and (for me the worst part) relief when she is "put out of her misery." It's a pretty hackneyed plot that gets a 4 star treatment. Unfortunately, the content of the treatment is objectionable on so many levels and the treatment itself when closely examined, is revealed as deeply flawed.

 

[rsaavedra]

* WATCH OUT: MOVIE SPOILER *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears The audience is never given the information to assess Maggie's situation and instead is manipulated into thinking that being euthanized is a good ending.

You are underestimating the author of the book, the movie makers, and the audience in general as if they were all dumb absorbers, and as if a movie will be the source of their morals. There is no manipulation, for that character euthanasia was the choice, not necessarily a good thing, but just her choice. She decided to do it in her case period. She is not deciding for anyone else, or for any audience subject to manipulation, everyone makes their own decisions, everyone has a brain and everyone is responsible for their decisions. That's what she decided to do *in her case and with her life*, and her trainer eventually agreed. There's nothing manipulative about showing that, one possible reality of one life gone tragic. There's no missing information for the audience to "assess her situation", there is enough information to just be informed of what she decided to do. It's not showing euthanasia as a good thing in people's eyes, it's just the choice of specific characters in a drama.

Who says characters in a drama given their situation and circumstances should make choices that everyone will like ? That commonly doesn't happen in real life anyway, why are you complaining about this happening in a drama?

You are seeing manipulation where there is just a drama you didn't like, or a drama presenting a moral issue with an outcome you morally disagree with. Eyes of the beholder again.

 

[aeriyn]

It was a bad, depressing, lame movie with not the best acting. Let's just leave it at that. -.-'

 

[rsaavedra]

* WATCH OUT: MOVIE SPOILER *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears You have reacted in the predictable way. Most of the audience when I was at the theater reacted in the same way. One of my daughters also reacted that way. Applause when Maggie is knocking out her opponent, horror when she is so unfairly brought down, and finally pity and resignation and (for me the worst part) relief when she is "put out of her misery."

It seems now you also think you know how I reacted to the movie???

I've never said I felt relief when she was taken out of her misery, and actually, I didn't. So obviously you don't know how I reacted to the movie. I'd suggest speak for yourself. I'm guessing now, maybe you are also wrong about your daughter's reaction.

 

[Bunnyears]

Sorry for that, it's is just to easy when typing as fast as I do to write first and think later. But, as for the "relief" that most of the audience felt, you could hear everyone exhaling as maggie died there in the dark. If that's not relief, I don't know what is.

Edit: Asking them how they felt, they told me they definitely felt sad, but they felt glad that she was finally out of her misery. That translates to relief. It's like watching a dog cross a superhighway. You see the car that's going to hit him from far off, but there's nothing to do but wait. That's predictable

 

[chadbang]

Damn, I wish someone would have thrown out a spoiler alert. I barely scanned this thread and spotted two words which gave away the whole story.

 

[tom hankins]

Checked it out yesterday. Both my girlfriend, and I thought the movie was excellent.

 

[Haribo]

I also think Bunnyears underestimate the audience. I definitely didn't feel relief when she was put out of her misery.

 

[warubozu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hankins Checked it out yesterday. Both my girlfriend, and I thought the movie was excellent.

Ditto, I enjoyed it and I don't think it was as bad as some had made it out to be.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang Damn, I wish someone would have thrown out a spoiler alert. I barely scanned this thread and spotted two words which gave away the whole story.

Gee sorry about that Chadbang. I did add one at the first post, but if you were browsing in the middle of the thread probably you wouldn't have noticed. Will add some warnings to all my previous posts here.

 

[chadbang]

That's allright, man. I should have been more careful.

 

[wali]

This movie is a master piece and that’s all I can say about it.

Even if you’ve got an idea about the plot, still just go and watch this movie because this sort of treat does not come that often – enough said.