[Mr.PD]

I can agree with a company not hiring you if you smoke.
I don't agree with a company telling you to quit smoking, and make it a requisite of your employment. It is nice that they encourage you not to smoke and especially nice when they offer cessation programs.

Here is another scenario. I have worked at my railroad job for 28 years. I have no social security benefits because of working here since I was 18. I am too far embedded in the retirement system I have now to get out of it. I am also 13 years from retirement age. What if my employer gave me the choice of quitting or finding new employment? That would not be a choice to me. I am stuck in this job now. I am too old to start a new career, and too old to earn any social security benefits. All I can do is move my 401k and continue with that. We haven't had the option of 401's long enough to have saved up enough money to make up for no railroad retirement income. I would lose all my years vested with railroad retirement if I were to work some where else.
So, I would have no choice in the matter, I would be forced to quit smoking. That would not be right.

I have had to give up drinking to keep my job. Okay, I had to give up excessive drinking. But that was because I showed up for work late and drunk.

Drinking was effecting my job performance. It is very dangerous to be around such heavy equipment when one is not fully in charge of ones faculties.

Bunnyears, yes to start smoking is a choice. After a while it is no longer a choice to continue smoking. It has become a need. One that I have been trying for the last 3 months to break away from, but still a need.

Rick, I understand where you are coming from. I don't like that the cost of freedom has been determined to be too high. Using money factors to determine what we can and cannot do rubs me the wrong way also. There are many aspects of society where we all give up something so someone else can have something. Like why do I have to have a low flow toilet? Why does my shower head dribble water instead of blasting me? Someplaces don't have enough water (or as I say, they have too many people) so there are regulations on how much water my bathroom can consume.
I have to wear a seatbelt so that everyones insurance rates don't go up as fast as they would if no one were to wear seat belts. If that aspect is even true. I have to pay more for home owners insurance because some hurricanes hit Florida, even though I live in Oregon. My employer wants a smoke free work force because the insurance company may give them a break on rates. It's all part of the big picture. We no longer have individual freedoms. There are just too many people now a days to allow everyone to have his or her own individual freedom.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD What if my employer gave me the choice of quitting or finding new employment? That would not be a choice to me. After a while it is no longer a choice to continue smoking. It has become a need. One that I have been trying for the last 3 months to break away from, but still a need.

Can an employer change, for whatever goods reasons, the terms of the initial contract as he wishes? The logic of protecting the health of his actual workers, with the objective of controling insurance costs, could lead to two obvious conclusions: that younger workers are less costly....or that since protecting private conducts is paramount, health insurance is no longer something corporation will be part of. If someone wants to run naked in flames during his weekends, let him find an insurance protection fitting for his lifestyle....

For some people the nicotine's addiction has become a medical matter and as such can we simply assume that this is still a choice available to them on the basis of a rational decision? In the same direction: do long time smokers have become handicaped people?

Amicalement

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD I can agree with a company not hiring you if you smoke. I don't agree with a company telling you to quit smoking, and make it a requisite of your employment. It is nice that they encourage you not to smoke and especially nice when they offer cessation programs. Here is another scenario. I have worked at my railroad job for 28 years. I have no social security benefits because of working here since I was 18. I am too far embedded in the retirement system I have now to get out of it. I am also 13 years from retirement age. What if my employer gave me the choice of quitting or finding new employment? That would not be a choice to me. I am stuck in this job now. I am too old to start a new career, and too old to earn any social security benefits. All I can do is move my 401k and continue with that. We haven't had the option of 401's long enough to have saved up enough money to make up for no railroad retirement income. I would lose all my years vested with railroad retirement if I were to work some where else. So, I would have no choice in the matter, I would be forced to quit smoking. That would not be right.

Mr.PD, how can you say that you have no social security benefits? Have you not been paying taxes during your term of employment? I think that you should investigate this further. If your employer has been deducting from your wages you are entitled to ss as soon as you reach federal retirement age.

Quote:

I have had to give up drinking to keep my job. Okay, I had to give up excessive drinking. But that was because I showed up for work late and drunk. Drinking was effecting my job performance. It is very dangerous to be around such heavy equipment when one is not fully in charge of ones faculties. Bunnyears, yes to start smoking is a choice. After a while it is no longer a choice to continue smoking. It has become a need. One that I have been trying for the last 3 months to break away from, but still a need.

When you describe smoking as a "need" you are sneaking around the truth: smoking is an addiction. If it were not an addiction, who would continue to smoke after learning of the terrible consequences to their health? Ofcourse stopping is hard. To this day, more than 20 years after I quit, I still dream of smoking cigarettes, and sometimes in a movie theater when an actor lights up I feel a pang so strong that I start compulsively munching popcorn (which can get you into trouble in NYC

). Good luck to you in your battle. It is hard but it is do-able.

Quote:

Rick, I understand where you are coming from. I don't like that the cost of freedom has been determined to be too high. Using money factors to determine what we can and cannot do rubs me the wrong way also. There are many aspects of society where we all give up something so someone else can have something. Like why do I have to have a low flow toilet? Why does my shower head dribble water instead of blasting me? Someplaces don't have enough water (or as I say, they have too many people) so there are regulations on how much water my bathroom can consume. I have to wear a seatbelt so that everyones insurance rates don't go up as fast as they would if no one were to wear seat belts. If that aspect is even true. I have to pay more for home owners insurance because some hurricanes hit Florida, even though I live in Oregon. My employer wants a smoke free work force because the insurance company may give them a break on rates. It's all part of the big picture. We no longer have individual freedoms. There are just too many people now a days to allow everyone to have his or her own individual freedom.

Actually, you will be paying far higher insurance rates on your home because of smoking than because of disasters in Florida, especially if you have fire insurance. More home fires are caused by smoking than any other cause.

There are many reasons to give up smoking. Unfortunately there is only one reason to stay a smoker: the addiction is so very powerful. If an employer compels his employees to stop smoking and they can do it, then they owe their employer a debt of gratitude. His draconian ruling, as awful as it seems, has been the stick that has gotten them out of the grip of this very powerful addiction.

There are many reasons to wear seatbelts aside from possibly lower insurance premiums. Princess Diana would be alive today if she had worn a seatbelt! In fact, the only person to walk away from that crash was in the front, passenger seat and he was also the only person wearing the seatbelt in the car. Everyone should use their seatbelts conscientiously and make sure that their children are properly restrained in their cars.

As to individual rights versus collective benefits, that is been a problem for society since the first humans devised laws by which they could live together. We have always ceded parts of our personal freedoms for the greater good. When you are a human being, everyone does better in a cooperative society.

 

[KYTGuy]

Railroad workers get no SS, Bunnyears...a negotiated settlement at the beginning of sS program? Kinda like the US Gov't workers...

 

[Bunnyears]

That sucks bigtime! Does that mean that they don't qualify for medicare either?

 

[Mr.PD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears That sucks bigtime! Does that mean that they don't qualify for medicare either?

I pay a very small amount of medicare taxes. I am not sure if I actually am entitled to any of it or not.
Instead of paying into SS I pay into the Railroad Retirement. I am actually taxed a little higher than I would be if I paid into SS, but the benefit is also higher.

Yeah, the addiction to smoking is strong, so strong it feels like a need.

Drinking was easier to quit.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Like why do I have to have a low flow toilet?

not me man ! when i flush the water levels of our local lakes go down temporarily !

all,you need do is cruise the demolition slavage yards for older toilets.these joints are also cool for matching up old wood trim,aquiring old brick for repairs,claw foot tubs without paying exessively (designer tubs,what a freakin joke).


yeah.I think when the rickmonster flushes the EPA is on the hunt for the guy who is living large in CT when all their monitoring devices go off the scale !

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD I pay a very small amount of medicare taxes. I am not sure if I actually am entitled to any of it or not. Instead of paying into SS I pay into the Railroad Retirement. I am actually taxed a little higher than I would be if I paid into SS, but the benefit is also higher. Yeah, the addiction to smoking is strong, so strong it feels like a need. Drinking was easier to quit.

I'd look to see how your benefits pay out, including medicare. At least you wont have to worry about what is going to happen to benefits 20 years down the line when the government has cut the incoming payments by letting new taxpayers put it into private investment accounts.

That's the thing about a substance you are addicted to, you don't just want it, you NEED it, or your whole body goes haywire. Just be glad that you don't have the Marlboro man on tv anymore. He probably kept more people smoking than Joe Camel ever did.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD Yeah, the addiction to smoking is strong, so strong it feels like....

....it's time to eat pop corn....

As said earlier there is only one good reason to quit: YOURS....

Hang on to it.

Amicalement

 

[wallijonn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears ...smoking is an addiction. If it were not an addiction, who would continue to smoke after learning of the terrible consequences to their health?

You mean like beef (with their steroids) and dairy that causes cholesterol, corn oil that makes you obese, drugs in chickens, alcohol and it's chirrosis of the liver, ... You do know that manufacturers are putting in drugs which stimulates your appetite to eat, right?

I have the hardest time refusing to buy Pepsi Cola or Coke Cola, and Raisinettes... yummm.

 

[blip]

Well my opinion is that in the end this isn't really about what is right or wrong because, in reality, neither term carries that much weight when it comes to contracts and capitalism (or any other system of economic organization, IMHO).

What matters is power. The power to compel another to do your will. The power of another to resist that compulsion.

In America, right now at least, the drive for money trumps the drive to seperate ones off-duty rights from their on-duty rights. If people object to this then they have to generate their own form of power (unionism, politics, protest etc. etc.) until this balance is reset in a way that is more pleasing to them.

But it seems to me that either Americans are not bothered by increased management control of their lives or it just hasn't hit a popular or powerful enough group for such a reaction to occur. If the former is true, I fear for us. (For that would mean that I'm in a severe minority and am thus weak) If the later is true, then it is only a matter of time.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

But it seems to me that either Americans are not bothered by increased management control of their lives or it just hasn't hit a popular or powerful enough group for such a reaction to occur. If the former is true, I fear for us. (For that would mean that I'm in a severe minority and am thus weak) If the later is true, then it is only a matter of time.

it is simple :

the old "divide and conquer" thing where you separate and cut out from the pack an unpopular group or habit and once disposed of move on to the next target group and repeat the destruction.
This group by group attack method is a thing seen throughout history and as long as it is not YOU being targeted and those that are do something you find not affecting your life you ignpore it...until it is YOUR turn and then it is not only too late for you but others that do not have a stake in it just truck on and ignore you and your plight.
But people,any step by step erosion of your personal freedom of choice,what and how you dicide to live your own life on your own time is only a small part of the overall lack of freedom you will wake up to one day.

and any that think it allright because "smokers or fat people" are not objects of pity now deserve what they get when it is their turn and their rights being trashed

just my opinion and as usual mine alone and means nothing

 

[blip]

The divide and conquer theory is the other possible future scenario. If it is, it is almost too terrible to contemplate because the new system is becoming global... if it consolidates there would be no outside... no barbarians to collapse the empire, so to speak. It is a Fouchaultian (sp?) nightmare.

I'm a big believer in cycles and balances, though, so I suspect that the ire of the masses shall be aroused before control can be consolidated.

But that might come from reading too much of that psycho Antonio Negri. His post-materialist teleology is probably a bit too seductive to be true.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I'm a big believer in cycles and balances, though, so I suspect that the ire of the masses shall be aroused before control can be consolidated.

There are no "masses" in the clssical sense.No common goal.No forward looking purpose in common.

Instead we have greedy little groups out for themselves and as long as it is the other guy getting screwed they care not.Those who do not fall into that category live in a fantasy world where in place of an actual life where real things take place that have real shockwaves down the line that effect everyone lose themselves online and only come out of it to eat or use the bathroom facilities.

nightmare ?

you are damn right there !

apathy and greed is a total recipe for disaster when those in the know are willing to take advantage of the sleeping 'masses' who let each day pass with a further erosion of their rights.

How many vote ?

How many know what their state rep votes or introduces as law ?

who is watching the watchers ?

No one cares until it is them taken away in the night.When it is just "the guy down the street' it means nothing.

extreme ?

Damn right but history has a way of repeating when you sleep through the prelude and these things are nothing new.Just a new way of doing it.

Taking away while telling you it is for your own good.

Not me.

Nope.

Gotta kill my a*s first then do what you want with my cold dead carcass but i will not be told I am eating steak when it tastes like crap,smells like crap and looks like crap.

 

[aeriyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 just my opinion and as usual mine alone and means nothing

I agree with you, Rickmonster. ^^