Mediaconverters for better sound?
Dec 31, 2023 at 4:25 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

TBMY

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Hi!

Some people claim better SQ when streaming audio from Tidal/Qobus/Networkdrive... to a streamer by putting 2x mediaconverters before streamer converting ethernet to optical and back to ethernet again before it goes into streamer. The straight ethernet connector should be galvanic isolated by itself, but I want to hear if any one of you hifi people have any self experienced SQ difference here. Theory and practise often differ in hifi world if you go up to hi end hifi. A mediaconverter like TP-Link MC220L with SFPs and fibercable are cheap (total 100USD) seen with hifi eyes, and if it makes a positive difference... If you have tried different MC and SFPs, please tell which combinations are preferred!

Skjermbilde 2023-12-31 kl. 09.47.01.jpg
 
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Dec 31, 2023 at 10:58 AM Post #2 of 15
Theory and practise often differ in hifi world if you go up to hi end hifi.

High-end hifi is filled with pseudo-science and straight up snake oil, because most of the time you simply cannot justify the pricing otherwise, when gear costing a fraction does exactly the same. And people who buy it of course hear a difference, because who wouldn't be biased if you just shelled out thousand of dollars for a power cable that was supposed to improve the sound. I have no interest in debating the typical audiophoolery topics, but this mediaconverter practice screams idiocy to me. Think for a second, what could you possibly gain from doing a conversion on the digital side before the streamer? Unless you are using a shielded ethernet connection and got a ground loop going in your system, it will not matter, and using media conversion to gain sound quality is quite frankly absurd, generally in signal processing you want to avoid unnecessary conversions.


And sorry in advance, this reply turned out way more bitter sounding than I intended to... :relaxed:
 
Jan 3, 2024 at 4:41 AM Post #3 of 15
Thanks for your meaning on the matter! :)
Some say that DACs doesent differ, some says Streamers doesent matter, some says Routers doesent matter, some says power conditioners doesent matter, some says USB cables doesent differ, ... Its all 1´s and 0´s and they all come in bit perfect in the digital domain!
I got a masters degree in computer sience and know the OSI model, ETH, WIFI,.. communication protocols, ...
I am just curious that maybe some "high end hifi nerds" here have first hand experiences on this subject.
Sound is of course subjective, and many likes/thinks new equipment always is better even if it is hard to document it by measurements at home.
At home we only got our ears to trust...
 
Jan 3, 2024 at 8:55 AM Post #5 of 15
Some say that DACs doesent differ, some says Streamers doesent matter, some says Routers doesent matter, some says power conditioners doesent matter, some says USB cables doesent differ, ... Its all 1´s and 0´s and they all come in bit perfect in the digital domain!

I think what happens is that many of the people who have reached the conclusion that all dacs sound the same have never ventured beyond low/mid-fi gear or headphones. Those people also tend to be the most vocal in their opinions. Hearing a few sub $500 dacs off a DT770 or Sundara, just for example, it's easy to think they all sound identical. And truth is, they're close. But venture up in gear and the difference and improvement becomes obvious and much more drastic. Once you've heard that a dac CAN make a marked improvement, the argument has to change from all dacs sound the same.

My experience with low-end streamers is that they sound cleaner, simply because I'm not introducing my computer into the signal path. Versus a low cost dac/amp run directly off my laptop, a streamer is blacker, more air, more separation, better dynamics. I simply don't use them because I need to hear PC audio for Netflix, YouTube, Zoom calls, etc.

Power conditioners, same--the problem is that many low-fi conditioners really don't do much of anything. I've measured a handful and some actually make the sound worse. My current one is made by PS Audio. Not only does it measure consistent in terms of EMI, but everything attached to it sounds cleaner. Routers and switches I can't speak to, that's something I haven't explored yet.

Sure, someone can argue this as placebo. Most people want to justify their purchases on both ends of the spectrum. But I've owned and heard enough gear and headphones to pick up on differences. As far as cables go, the usb cable from my laptop to ddc made the biggest improvement in my setup--more than XLR, RCA, and power cables. I've heard the 1's and 0's argument many times--it, again, comes down to experience. It's easy to dismiss a $500 usb cable as snake oil, especially when you compare a few sub $20 cables to each other. Again, compare the right pricey cable to a $15 Monoprice cable and it becomes apparent. And as with dacs, as soon as you are open to the possibliity that there CAN be a difference, the argument has to change from all cables sound the same.
 
Jan 8, 2024 at 7:30 PM Post #6 of 15
Hi!

Some people claim better SQ when streaming audio from Tidal/Qobus/Networkdrive... to a streamer by putting 2x mediaconverters before streamer converting ethernet to optical and back to ethernet again before it goes into streamer. The straight ethernet connector should be galvanic isolated by itself, but I want to hear if any one of you hifi people have any self experienced SQ difference here. Theory and practise often differ in hifi world if you go up to hi end hifi. A mediaconverter like TP-Link MC220L with SFPs and fibercable are cheap (total 100USD) seen with hifi eyes, and if it makes a positive difference... If you have tried different MC and SFPs, please tell which combinations are preferred!

Skjermbilde 2023-12-31 kl. 09.47.01.jpg
There are people who have experimented with FMCs on this thread with great results.

Rule of thumb, don't take audio or computer advice from anyone that refers to binary code as 0s and 1s.

Btw, an ethernet cable is absolutely not galvanically isolated, I know alot of people are confused by this term, gregario definitely is 🤣. If it were galvanically isoalted, it would not be able to carry power.

Any ethernet cable can power devices over POE, typically security cameras, voip phones, door access systems, amongst many others are powered this way.

Even if the end device doesn't draw power, its still an electrical connection that can transfer noise and/or interference. Anything that carries power, generates an EMF around it and the EMF moves with the flow of power, since the wires carrying data are tightly packed into the cable without any shielding, as an overwhelming majority of ethernet cables used in homes are UTP, the EMF will intrude into the wires carrying data, this will contaminate the data with noise/interference. In most cases, it has a negligible effect but with hi-fidelity audio, it has a significant effect.

So it makes sense that converting the media transport method from ethernet to fiber and back to ethernet may have an effect on the audio. I have not tested it myself so I don't know what that may be. There is also a concern that there may be added jitter as fiber is prone to it but it may be negative in that way but overall may have a positive effect on your system.

If you're really interested in doing this, I'd recommend asking in the ethernet thread, there are much better devices available than the tp link option.
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 11:16 AM Post #7 of 15
What's next, saying that copying and pasting a FLAC file degrades its quality?

Digital is digital. The bits either arrive intact or they don't. And transferring bits from one device to another perfectly is a problem we solved decades ago and is the only way computers even work at all.

Once you convert from digital to analog, then anything is possible. But provided you put bits in one end of a transfer and the same bits come out the other end, it's a perfect transfer and there is no alteration in sound, no matter how many devices are involved in getting it from one end of the transfer to the other. And in fact, adding more devices only makes it more likely that the bits arrive altered.
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 12:17 PM Post #8 of 15
Digital is digital. The bits either arrive intact or they don't. And transferring bits from one device to another perfectly is a problem we solved decades ago and is the only way computers even work at all.
So two possibilities going to a DAC?

Either the bits are all there or they're not?

Once you convert from digital to analog, then anything is possible. But provided you put bits in one end of a transfer and the same bits come out the other end, it's a perfect transfer and there is no alteration in sound, no matter how many devices are involved in getting it from one end of the transfer to the other. And in fact, adding more devices only makes it more likely that the bits arrive altered.
So anything is possible after it passes the DAC, including an alteration of the sound?

And the more devices involved, the greater possibility of the audio changing?

But before the DAC, there's only one way to get the signal there and it doesn't matter as long as all the bits arrive?

I'm just trying to make sure I'm fully understanding what you're saying.

All the devices in a setup can alter the sound, but none of the cables can, assuming they're all functioning properly?
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 3:49 PM Post #9 of 15
Either the bits are all there or they're not?
A digital file is made up of just zeroes and ones, a specific number of them in a specific order. So long as those zeroes and ones arrive at their destination in the same quantity and same order, there is zero difference between the original file and the transferred file. They are perfectly identical. And that sounds difficult, but computing would be impossible if we didn't already solve that problem first. If a computer couldn't perfectly move bits from, say, the hard drive, to the memory, to the processor, then they simply wouldn't work. Even a simple electronic calculator would be impossible if we hadn't figured out how to achieve this. But calculators and computers do work, because we mastered bit-perfect information transmission decades and decades ago, out of necessity. We're so good at it that we can send bit-perfect information between two computers on exact opposite ends of the planet, going through untold miles of wire in all states of integrity, at billions of bits per second with only microseconds of delay. Bit-perfect digital information transmission isn't trivial, so to speak, but it is 100% a solved problem and asking an electronic device to transfer information perfectly is like asking a human to breathe. It's automatic, it's the simplest, most basic task to ask of an electronic device. And this is why the world is so digital today: Because absolutely perfect and nearly-instantaneous information transmission is much easier to achieve with digital technology rather than analog technology. A zero is a zero, a one is a one, and so long as they're all there and in the right order, there is absolutely zero signal degradation whatsoever. Doesn't matter how dirty or noisy or nasty the wires are that got the signal from point A to point B. So long as all the zeroes and ones are where they should be, it's identical, zero loss.

The reason this works is because of error correction. And this is generally the primary bottleneck that dictates how fast our technology is. It's not about how fast we can send information. We can send information at the speed of light, no problem. The bottleneck is, how fast can we verify that the information was transmitted intact. To grossly oversimplify, with error correction, we can send a handful of bits to a machine, and the receiving machine will check to see if those bits make sense or if it just received gibberish, and if it received gibberish, it'll say to the sending machine "Hold up, resend that last chunk" and the transmission will keep retrying until those handful of bits make it intact. And that's why, say, your WiFi gets slower as you get further away from the antenna broadcasting the WiFi signal. The further away you get, the harder it is to transmit bits perfectly, for a variety of reasons. So more transmission errors occur, and error correction steps in and says "Hold up, those last few bits were garbage, resend" more often. The bits get from point A to point B just as quickly whether you're near or far, they just don't arrive intact as frequently the further you get, so error correction has to ask for them to be resent more often. More time spent resending the same little chunk of data until it finally arrives intact means less time sending the rest of the data in line behind it, and so you get slower data transmission overall.

A good example of digital signal transmission without error correction was the bad old days of satellite TV and how shows would look like an absolute mess in bad weather. That's because in the old days of live TV broadcasts, there was no opportunity to request a resend of any data that arrived damaged. Satelittle TV broadcasters just kept sending more and more information regardless of transmission success, and in bad weather, digital information often arrived damaged, and all your TV could do was accept the damaged data, do its best to display the gibberish data on screen (or just go blank altogether), and then move on to the next data it was receiving.

In short, computers and our entire digital world today only work because of bit-perfect communication and error correction, and if you want to learn more about it, here's a good video:

Suffice it to say, error-free digital transmission of data is a solved problem. Even the simplest computer wouldn't work if we couldn't manage that. And really, truly, if we're talking specifically digital audio, yes, you can be 100000000000% assured that whatever digital audio was sent from one machine arrived in an identical, unaltered, perfect state on the second machine.

...PROVIDED ALL THE MACHINES ARE CONFIGURED CORRECTLY.

This is where problems occur when it comes to digital audio transmission. Generally every device in the digital audio chain has a mode of operation where it simply receives digital audio and then passes it on unaltered. But that doesn't mean that every device is operating in that mode. For instance maybe you have a 24-bit/48khz file and it's being passed on in 16-bit/44.1khz mode. Processing and data alteration had to be done to make that conversion, which in all likelihood might be happening for no reason other than, the device doing it was simply configured wrong and that data alteration can easily be prevented, it just isn't being prevented.

My example of 24/48 audio accidentally being converted to 16/44, there's still debate about whether or not that conversion introduces any actual humanly perceptible artifacts. But there's other ways signal processing is being automatically performed that are 100% audible. For instance, most EQ'ing these days is digital signal processing that is usually done intentionally by people to achieve a desired effect. But Windows, for another example, introduces all sorts of signal processing options, many of which are enabled by default. "Enhancements" and "spatial sound," etc etc. So, if your goal is to transmit digital audio from one point to another with zero alteration or loss, you have to make sure every digital device in the chain is configured to work that way. And the more digital devices you introduce into the chain, the greater the likelihood that some device in the way is configured to be doing something you don't want it to do. When it's just a Windows PC transmitting to a USB-connected DAC, easy peasy, go into Sound Settings, uncheck a couple boxes, job's done, you get bit-perfect audio. When you have all these other devices in the way doing god-knows-what to the audio, it's not so simple. So the best way to have perfect, unaltered digital audio transmission is by having as few devices handling the audio as possible.

So anything is possible after it passes the DAC, including an alteration of the sound?

So far I've been talking specifically about digital audio signals. Once the digital signal hits the DAC and gets converted to analog, all bets are off, this is where all kinds of entirely uncontrollable and uncorrectable signal alteration can creep in. For instance, electromagnetic interference. Digital audio transmission is susceptible to things like EMI just like analog audio, it's just that digital audio has that error correction step to make sure it, at some point, receives information unaltered by EMI or anything else. There is no error correction in analog signal transmission, because while digital signals are either zeroes or ones, analog signals are fluctuations in voltages that can vary by as small an amount you can measure. Plus, the simple act of measuring the signal for error correction would itself alter the signal anyway. You can never be truly sure an analog signal arrives intact, because you can always just keep taking finer and finer measurements and finding finer and finer discrepancies. And that's how you get things like amps with a supposed 0.00000001% THD. It's a pretty meaningless figure at that magnitude. All it's really telling you is how precise an instrument they use to measure these things. All the competitors need to do to improve on that figure is invent a device that can measure even finer. Nothing to do with the audio equipment itself.

But suffice it to say, once a digital audio signal is converted to analog, that analog signal is influenced and altered by every single component and electrical connection and millimeter of wire it passes through. Whether or not these differences and alterations are humanly perceptible is the great debate in audiophilia that will likely go on forever. It's definitely true that different amps sound different. Just compare something like the most tube-sounding tube amp to anything from, say, Topping. They're night and day. The difference isn't even slightly subtle. And the very real and very audible alteration that a tube amp can impart on an audio signal is the entire reason tube enthusiasts buy them. Because it's a perceptible and desireable alteration. But then you get into debates along the lines of copper wire versus silver wire for analog audio transmission, or "audiophile power cables" or "audiophile fuses," etc etc. Sure, a difference might be measurable, but it doesn't mean it's humanly perceptible, and even then there are so many variables that just comparing one sample of each doesn't tell you the whole story.

Because analog signals are so susceptible to alteration, that's why it's generally regarded as best practice to keep the signal in your chain digital as long as possible: Because transmitting the digital signal with zero degradation or alteration and verifiying the transmission was perfect is, to the user, trivial. And having as few digital devices as possible in the chain means it's easier to make sure they're all configured properly and easier to be aware of exactly what's happening inside every device. But once you convert the signal to analog, anything can happen, electrically and/or environmentally, and at this point I believe you just have to follow your ears. Every analog device and every component inside every device influences the sound (be it perceptibly or otherwise), and every analog signal goes through dozens of components before it reaches your headphone/speaker drivers, and then finally your ears. It's up to you to determine if you can hear those influences, and if you think you can, whether or not the influences are desireable.
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 7:57 PM Post #10 of 15
Within similar technologies, alternatives exist for the same reason Lightning and Firewire and all the other extinct proprietary data connections existed. To trap customers into a proprietary ecosystem. Outside of that, different technologies have different advantages, like optical being immune to EMI, with the tradeoff being relative frailty compared to good ol' stranded copper.

These are some the various kinds of errors that can be corrected against. At the end of the day, it's all various ways ones and zeroes can end up accidentally flipped or rearranged, and proper error correction can restore the altered data perfectly. If the end result is altered information, it's not a perfect transfer, and there was processing done somewhere that may or may not have affected the sound in an audible way.

I should clarify that digital transfers aren't always perfect. They just *can* very easily be perfect, in ways analog can never be.

But at the end of the day, this is what audiophilia is all about. Accepting the fact that signal alteration is inevitable, and chasing the devices that alter signals in the most pleasing way to your own ears. And while it's easy to prevent digital signal alteration, that's not always the design goal of a particular digital device.
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 8:08 PM Post #11 of 15
Within similar technologies, alternatives exist for the same reason Lightning and Firewire and all the other extinct proprietary data connections existed. To trap customers into a proprietary ecosystem. Outside of that, different technologies have different advantages, like optical being immune to EMI, with the tradeoff being relative frailty compared to good ol' stranded copper.


These are some the various kinds of errors that can be corrected against. At the end of the day, it's all various ways ones and zeroes can end up accidentally flipped or rearranged, and proper error correction can restore the altered data perfectly. If the end result is altered information, it's not a perfect transfer, and there was processing done somewhere that may or may not have affected the sound in an audible way.

I should clarify that digital transfers aren't always perfect. They just *can* very easily be perfect, in ways analog can never be.

But at the end of the day, this is what audiophilia is all about. Accepting the fact that signal alteration is inevitable, and chasing the devices that alter signals in the most pleasing way to your own ears. And while it's easy to prevent digital signal alteration, that's not always the design goal of a particular digital device.
Lol come on. Alternatives exist to trap customers into a proprietary ecosystem?

i2s, aes, fiber are proprietary? Those are not proprietary. Who's getting the checks from licensing those connections?

No one is arguing anything about error correction. What error checks are you referring to specifically anyway?

And the main question is, if I use optical vs usb from my pc with everything else being the same. Why does it is sound so different not just to me but everyone that hears it.

(Someone's going to say placebo)
 
Jan 11, 2024 at 7:06 PM Post #13 of 15
I think what happens is that many of the people who have reached the conclusion that all dacs sound the same have never ventured beyond low/mid-fi gear or headphones. Those people also tend to be the most vocal in their opinions. Hearing a few sub $500 dacs off a DT770 or Sundara, just for example, it's easy to think they all sound identical. And truth is, they're close. But venture up in gear and the difference and improvement becomes obvious and much more drastic. Once you've heard that a dac CAN make a marked improvement, the argument has to change from all dacs sound the same.

My experience with low-end streamers is that they sound cleaner, simply because I'm not introducing my computer into the signal path. Versus a low cost dac/amp run directly off my laptop, a streamer is blacker, more air, more separation, better dynamics. I simply don't use them because I need to hear PC audio for Netflix, YouTube, Zoom calls, etc.

Power conditioners, same--the problem is that many low-fi conditioners really don't do much of anything. I've measured a handful and some actually make the sound worse. My current one is made by PS Audio. Not only does it measure consistent in terms of EMI, but everything attached to it sounds cleaner. Routers and switches I can't speak to, that's something I haven't explored yet.

Sure, someone can argue this as placebo. Most people want to justify their purchases on both ends of the spectrum. But I've owned and heard enough gear and headphones to pick up on differences. As far as cables go, the usb cable from my laptop to ddc made the biggest improvement in my setup--more than XLR, RCA, and power cables. I've heard the 1's and 0's argument many times--it, again, comes down to experience. It's easy to dismiss a $500 usb cable as snake oil, especially when you compare a few sub $20 cables to each other. Again, compare the right pricey cable to a $15 Monoprice cable and it becomes apparent. And as with dacs, as soon as you are open to the possibliity that there CAN be a difference, the argument has to change from all cables sound the same.
Agreed.

Noise can come in through any cable connected, including USB. Eventually, the ethernet port becomes the main noise entrance. Then you need an audiophile ethernet switch. Noise is the enemy to digital audio because it translate into jitter. Adding an audiophile switch to a crappy system won't make any difference. A small bottleneck always hides a bigger one. Believing or not is irrelevant. The true scientific approach requires open-mindedness and no a priori. The biggest obstacle to discoveries is unfounded beliefs. Science is never settled but rather in constant evolution. It can never be better the people who make it. Real scientifics now this but these days, people with little scientific background cite science and act as if they were authorities... Strange days.
 
Jan 14, 2024 at 6:23 PM Post #14 of 15
Jan 29, 2024 at 2:50 PM Post #15 of 15


Good video that just dropped about how jitter is irrelevant today.
 

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