[Clarkmc2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif This would - and has with the previous O2I - compare badly to speakers if you're an accomplished lounger on a sofa, just doing what you normally do - flip through the latest copy of National Geographic, sip a drink, etc. And yes. I reward myself well enough that single-tasking for two hours could be construed bad use of time

I think I see the disconnect between what Greg and I are talking about and the way the rest of you prefer to listen. To illustrate, would you bring your magazine and your drink into the concert hall when listening to the symphony?

There is nothing wrong with either approach, but it would not be expecting too much for both viewpoints to be mutually respected. This is not a contest.

As for being locked into one position by headphones, it is the opposite for concentrating listeners like Greg and I. We can sit/stand/walk/lounge wherever we want with cans, that is why extension cables were invented, but careful listening with speakers means being glued to the sweet spot in the room. Otherwise the best part of the engineering is wasted. Off axis, there goes the most subtle detail and microdynamics.

Maybe I'm lucky, but the O2 is completely comfortable for me. Lying back on a couch is no problem either. The most adjustable headphone I have ever worn.

Clark

 

[Necrolic]

Your budget is 5000 euros, the speakers are 4800, where are you going to get an amp and source worthy of the speakers?

 

[greggf]

Holy cow, Clark, yes, you've nailed the situation exactly. Thank you. Different listening styles. And neither is "wrong".

I only listen intently and singlemindedly, or else I don't listen.

((I feel abused in an era of rampant multitasking and casual listening for simple entertainment, or for mere diversion.))

The OP has to decide how he listens. Headphones probably suit intense concentrated listening styles better for the reasons you mention, Clark - sweet spot, and all that.

And Nec is right, too - $$ favor headphones.

 

[emericanchaos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvlgato /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like both cans and speakers. Each has its advantages. But given enough space, proper and careful set up and equipment (much, much harder and more expensive w/ speakers), sure, I prefer speakers. If the goal is a life-like musical experience, you need the size, space, distance, and perspective of speakers. The advantage of cans is convenience (size, space, easy control over environment), performance for price, and maybe more detail. Just my opinion ...

i think you've hit it on the head. i've always been more impressed with loudspeakers than with headphones. i think it's because it's more natural to be distanced from the source of the sound. it's been very hard for me to find a headfi setup that i'm happy with. just getting tonality right has been an uphill battle for me. after that there's still a myriad of other issues to iron out. tuning is less of an option with headfi so troubleshooting usually means buying new gear.

imo the main pro to headphones is you can remain relatively quiet. if losing this isn't a problem going loudspeaker would most likely be better. especially for the money imo. just in my car i've been more happy with sound reproduction than i have been in the headphone arena and when you compare the relative levels of quality i'm at with each you quickly learn that loudspeakers are more fulfilling. to put it bluntly, with headphones, no matter what amp, dac, tubes, cabling etc you have you're still listening to a 1" speaker. you're limited to what that can do. comparing that to a loudspeaker setup with a subwoofer, 8" woofers, dedicated midranges and super detailed tweeters just isn't fair.

if you like building/tweaking there's a community of DIYers who build their own speakers, enclosures, crossovers and even amps and DACs. going this route takes your $$$ much farther. if you're handy with basic tools and can build a box out of MDF you'd do well to look into this. soldering skills are a plus as well.

for those interested my car setup is pretty basic. i have a good SQ oriented subwoofer (JL12w6) which is really my centerpiece. the rest of the system is run of the mill. rockford amps, excelon head unit and sub $100 pioneer components. aside from the subwoofer my setup is very entry level.

 

[emericanchaos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Holy cow, Clark, yes, you've nailed the situation exactly. Thank you. Different listening styles. And neither is "wrong". I only listen intently and singlemindedly, or else I don't listen. ((I feel abused in an era of rampant multitasking and casual listening for simple entertainment, or for mere diversion.)) The OP has to decide how he listens. Headphones probably suit intense concentrated listening styles better for the reasons you mention, Clark - sweet spot, and all that. And Nec is right, too - $$ favor headphones.

i don't know how you can say $$$ favors headphones. no headphone will do what a subwoofer will do. no matter how much you spend on headphones you're going to be missing parts of the sound spectrum. logically speaking $$$ would favor the loudspeaker when it comes to money spent versus product received.

 

[emericanchaos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your budget is 5000 euros, the speakers are 4800, where are you going to get an amp and source worthy of the speakers?

it doesn't work like that. the speaker is what you listen too. it's what actually moves the air and makes the sound. the speaker is a large majority of what you listen too and thus a large part of what you should spend on.

 

[emericanchaos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I see the disconnect between what Greg and I are talking about and the way the rest of you prefer to listen. To illustrate, would you bring your magazine and your drink into the concert hall when listening to the symphony? There is nothing wrong with either approach, but it would not be expecting too much for both viewpoints to be mutually respected. This is not a contest. As for being locked into one position by headphones, it is the opposite for concentrating listeners like Greg and I. We can sit/stand/walk/lounge wherever we want with cans, that is why extension cables were invented, but careful listening with speakers means being glued to the sweet spot in the room. Otherwise the best part of the engineering is wasted. Off axis, there goes the most subtle detail and microdynamics. Maybe I'm lucky, but the O2 is completely comfortable for me. Lying back on a couch is no problem either. The most adjustable headphone I have ever worn. Clark

off axis listening isn't the devil you'd like it to be. there's a lot of drivers that produce very close to their 0 degree measurements even 30 degrees off center. some will even sound better because their highs won't be as sharp and become more listenable. it's about speaker placement and driver choices as well equalisation and crossover settings. at the same time, you've effectively nullified your magazine/concert hall argument when you talk about walking around doing other things and distracting yourself from your listening material.

the disconnect seems to be a lack of proper understanding on how loudspeaker setups work and how certain problems can be avoided in that venue of sound reproduction.

 

[emericanchaos]

in short, a good headphone setup is a great thing to add to your home entertainment setup but to make it the centerpiece, considering the cons, is shortsighted. if you're looking to spend $5000 on audio and the question is either headphones or loudspeaker then loudspeaker is the easy choice. especially if this person doesn't have a comparable loudspeaker setup to compliment their headfi setup.

 

[Clarkmc2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by emericanchaos /img/forum/go_quote.gif the disconnect seems to be a lack of proper understanding on how loudspeaker setups work and how certain problems can be avoided in that venue of sound reproduction.

I've been doing this since the 1950s, and my understanding of matters relating to speakers is not trivial. As for your level of discourse, feel free to come back and play when you know what you are talking about.

If saying this gets me kicked off the forum so be it. I don't need to be called ignorant anymore by someone who assumes what I know and what I don't know. Nothing personal, but I just don't need it. I try to be nice and call for tolerance and respect, and this is what I get.

Just saying that someone must not understand something because they do not agree with you speaks for itself.

 

[emericanchaos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been doing this since the 1950s, and my understanding of matters relating to speakers is not trivial. As for your level of discourse, feel free to come back and play when you know what you are talking about. If saying this gets me kicked off the forum so be it. I don't need to be called ignorant anymore by someone who assumes what I know and what I don't know. Nothing personal, but I just don't need it. I try to be nice and call for tolerance and respect, and this is what I get. Just saying that someone must not know anything because they do not agree with you speaks for itself.

what speaks for itself is your contradictory arguments and short sightedness in the form of blind devotion. if i made an assumption here, which i didn't, then it would've been based on what you've displayed in this thread. so far you've made many claims that are flat out incorrect.

congratulations on maintaining a hobby for 60 years but maybe you should be more devoted. as with everything life, things in audio constantly change. being involved in this for a long time doesn't entitle you wisdom. especially if you think what you learned 50 years ago directly applies today.

you need to actually know what you're talking about. so far i've seen you try to knock down loudspeakers in favor of headphones but you've addressed nothing that's been introduced as contrary evidence to your claims (1" speaker as a subwoofer for example)

you seem to feel entitled respect but you're not giving that nor are you knowledgeable enough on your chosen subject matter to earn it. funny group baby boomers are with their entitlements.

btw, posting about how you shun materialism in a highend audio forum where people spend thousands of dollars on personal entertainment devices isn't really a good idea.

 

[A_Dying_Wren]

Quote:

Originally Posted by emericanchaos /img/forum/go_quote.gif it doesn't work like that. the speaker is what you listen too. it's what actually moves the air and makes the sound. the speaker is a large majority of what you listen too and thus a large part of what you should spend on.

Now I don't have the remotest pretense of a speaker system in my house but powering $4800 speakers with a $200 amp seems to be absolutely and utterly crazy.

It does work like that. I'd agree that you should probably pay more on speakers but there needs to be a balance somewhere, which is what Necrolic is saying. And we're all saying don't listen to the shop speakers and think those exact speakers will sound the same without some pretty hefty support which would blow his budget.

 

[doctorcilantro]

I agree for the most part, but you never know. You could somehow come into a really good deal on speakers and something like a Gainclone would sound pretty good I imagine (for only 100-200 dollars).

DC

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Dying_Wren /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now I don't have the remotest pretense of a speaker system in my house but powering $4800 speakers with a $200 amp seems to be absolutely and utterly crazy. It does work like that. I'd agree that you should probably pay more on speakers but there needs to be a balance somewhere, which is what Necrolic is saying. And we're all saying don't listen to the shop speakers and think those exact speakers will sound the same without some pretty hefty support which would blow his budget.

 

[Bones13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorcilantro /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree for the most part, but you never know. You could somehow come into a really good deal on speakers and something like a Gainclone would sound pretty good I imagine (for only 100-200 dollars). DC

Or a vintage stereo amplifier from ebay/audiogon/garage sale. Most of us make compromises along the upgrade pathway, as most cannot afford all the best gear from the beginning. Great speakers, and an ok amp from the start, then upgrade as $ and tastes require.

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe I'm lucky, but the O2 is completely comfortable for me. Lying back on a couch is no problem either. The most adjustable headphone I have ever worn.

Maybe this is the disconnect more than anything else. I'm probably too demanding - never really into making compromises for the sake of it.

 

[vcoheda]

i live in a studio apartment and listen mostly very late at night, so speakers never really appealed to me. and now that i have have seen what headphones can do, i'm not sure i'll ever really get into speakers.