[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSmith08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've really, on an unrelated note, gotten to like Bruno Maderna's M9 from 1971. In a way, it is Mahler via Darmstadt, insofar as it is dry-eyed and clear-headed about it all. Still, Maderna's approach was too manic and, at times, frantic to let it become another mid-1970s Boulez record. Maderna's tempi swing pretty wildly, and I can only think that Mahler himself would have approved of such a fluid style. From what I gather, Maderna's cancer - which killed him in 1973 - probably would have been known to him by 1971, or he would have known something was wrong. This isn't a reference disc, that's Ancerl for me, but it's still a good spin.

Thanks for jogging my memory PS, I have been wanting to order the Maderna/BBC Legends M9 for some time now......order has been placed.

Barenboim M9
This is the new buzz CD for Mahler, very good sound quality with lots of inner detail especially woodwind section and fine performance but does not have quite enough to enter my top 5 list. I think his recent M7 ranks higher overall for me, but combine the two and Barenboim has convinced me that he is the best of the current modern day conductors of Mahler and I will continue to buy his future Mahler releases.

Gatti and Oue also have a handful of extremely impressive modern Mahler releases but nothing more has come out.......?????

 

[papy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been trying to get information on the Zinman M1, but so far the only thing I've found is a review by DH. He gave it 9/10, which for him is something. He had a few quibbles (as usual). Lately he's become a strict constructionist so any deviation from the score means he's marking down. Unfortunately I haven't bought it yet, and don't know anyone who has heard it.

I have found it this afternoon in my local HMV, fairly cheap too (£7.95..cheap for us !!)..Nice to see something else than Rattle in HMV too for the Mahler section !!

I am on the first listen at the moment, so for now, i'll just put the timings of the versions i have :

1st Mvt
Maazel - 16.36
Zinman - 15.32
Bertini - 15.46

2nd Mvt
Maazel - 8.56
Zinman - 7.40
Bertini - 7.24

3rd Mvt
Maazel - 11.40
Zinman - 10.55
Bertini - 10.46

4th Mvt
Maazel - 20.35
Zinman - 20.55
Bertini - 20.36

I'll try some comparisons later on, just need to find out what to talk about, or how to talk about it, more to the point.....

 

[Bunnyears]

Those are interesting time markings, but they don't (as we have all found out) tell the whole story. I'm unfamiliar with Maazel's Mahler, but if Zinman's times are similar to Bertini's I hope I am getting a good idea of what's happening. That's if the times are accurate. Too often, when I compare the time markings in the notes with the track times from my computer or cd player, there are marked differences. I'm still waiting to hear what someone says who's actually heard them.

 

[papy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those are interesting time markings, but they don't (as we have all found out) tell the whole story. I'm unfamiliar with Maazel's Mahler, but if Zinman's times are similar to Bertini's I hope I am getting a good idea of what's happening. That's if the times are accurate. Too often, when I compare the time markings in the notes with the track times from my computer or cd player, there are marked differences. I'm still waiting to hear what someone says who's actually heard them.

Hi Bunny,
After your comment, I double checked the timings on my CD player. All are correct as advertised within 2/3 seconds....only the second movement is actually longer at 7.54.

As for impressions...bear in mind i do not have the musical knowledge or enough hindsight in mahler's work and their representations, so to me, it is fairly identical to other versions in the great scheme of things for now...some of the differences i noted though :

- the playing has more a free-flow feel to it than the other versions i have...that makes the 1st movement a much more relaxing affair, and you can really get that nature/spring atmosphere.

- that free flow has one downside to me though...it created less distinctive notes in the melody in some areas, e.g. especially in the violins, still in the 1st movement...zinman's fast speed may have accentuated that, I found it was more detailed in the bertini, even though the speed is close timewise....

-there's also that muddled feel in the "sturmisch bewegt"...Horns and percussions are right up there, really powerful, but again, the strings have a muddled sound, which to me, dampens the impact of the movement.

- I would probably put some of my lack of excitment to the sound quality of the recording. I only have a standard CD player, so i don't benefit of the SACD profile of the recording, but the general impression is a muffled and contained one in most parts. For instance, the Abbado M6 i also have on SACD had a much wider soundstage, and way more clarity, between each sections.

Again, let me re-state that 's a VERY relative impression, given my very limited knowledge of the matter all together...I'll still enjoy that record because I enjoy the piece, which is the main thing... maybe it is just less "in your face" and more a "smooth/squeaky clean" approach.... however, give me a blind test between my 3 versions, and i'd pushed to identify one from the other, sooo...... I'll leave all you experienced malherites debates on further on this one. I'll be interested to hear your feedback too.

Papy

 

[Bunnyears]

Papy,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful writeup! I'm definitely considering this as well as his Mahler 2 which is going to be released at the end of May. We may have the beginning of a new, noteworthy cycle; and in SACD too. The fact that the M1 also includes the Blumine (as a stand alone piece after the end of the symphony) is another inducement to buy.

Here's a picture of the forthcoming album. The cover shows St. Anthony of Padua Preaching to the Fishes, one of the themes in Des Knaben Wunderhorn. I read somewhere that Mahler kept a picture of that in his study, although perhaps not this particular one. The shark looks on the verge of conversion, or perhaps of making St. Anthony his next meal, depending on your viewpoint.

 

[papy]

Despite the lukewarm feel on his M1, I'll probably pull the trigger on Zinman's M2 when it is out as well, as it is my favorite symphony of the lot, so the interest is there regardless...I already have the Klemperer on the way at the moment, looking forward to discovering that one

(Zinman's Beethoven and Schumann Symphonies are in the shopping basket too... i must...resist

)

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Despite the lukewarm feel on his M1, I'll probably pull the trigger on Zinman's M2 when it is out as well, as it is my favorite symphony of the lot, so the interest is there regardless...I already have the Klemperer on the way at the moment, looking forward to discovering that one (Zinman's Beethoven and Schumann Symphonies are in the shopping basket too... i must...resist )

Do not resist the Beethoven or Schumann. They are both terrific and well worth the money!

I just found a review of the Zinman M1 at Classicstoday. The only criticism Horowitz makes is that Zinman didn't emphasize the the Klezmer (Jewish) flavor of the folk themes played on clarinet:

I do wish he'd exaggerated the Jewish music in the funeral march a bit more. The music could take a bit more schmaltz, and a bit more spookiness in the march itself despite the careful observance of Mahler's dynamics.

It's really a small criticism, as he goes on to say that it has a wonderfully dramatic finale. I think I'll be getting this recording as I've become very, very curious now.

 

[papy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do not resist the Beethoven or Schumann. They are both terrific and well worth the money!

I needed that evil push !!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I'll be getting this recording as I've become very, very curious now.

Go on, you know you want to !! You need an evil push too !!

 

[mbhaub]

Ok, I bit. The Zinman Mahler 1 arrived on Friday from Amazon. Here's my take:

The sound is truly impressive. Detailed, clear, full. No sense of constraint or overloading. THe quiet introduction is breathtaking. I haven't tried it with headphones yet.
Performance: clear-headed, restrained, very classical. This is not a heart-on-sleeve M1 like Bernstein. Nor is it turned into bombastic trash like too many performers. Instead, it is played as a symphony, romantic in spirit, with many exhilirating effects. It is played to the hilt. It's more like Kubelik than anything else. It is very refreshing, like his Beethoven and Schumann. I like it very much and will gladly and eagerly purchase M2 later this month. This is not the last word in M1, and won't be to everyone's taste - it's too restrained for that -- but maybe after 40+ years of conductors over-emoting in Mahler (is that possible?) we're heading in new directions. The orchestra, by the way, is superb and the famed orchestras of Berlin and Vienna had better take notice!
I could have done without Blumine. It's weak Mahler at best, and it has no business being included unless it's the 1893 version of the symphony being played.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, I bit. The Zinman Mahler 1 arrived on Friday from Amazon. Here's my take: The sound is truly impressive. Detailed, clear, full. No sense of constraint or overloading. THe quiet introduction is breathtaking. I haven't tried it with headphones yet. Performance: clear-headed, restrained, very classical. This is not a heart-on-sleeve M1 like Bernstein. Nor is it turned into bombastic trash like too many performers. Instead, it is played as a symphony, romantic in spirit, with many exhilirating effects. It is played to the hilt. It's more like Kubelik than anything else. It is very refreshing, like his Beethoven and Schumann. I like it very much and will gladly and eagerly purchase M2 later this month. This is not the last word in M1, and won't be to everyone's taste - it's too restrained for that -- but maybe after 40+ years of conductors over-emoting in Mahler (is that possible?) we're heading in new directions. The orchestra, by the way, is superb and the famed orchestras of Berlin and Vienna had better take notice! I could have done without Blumine. It's weak Mahler at best, and it has no business being included unless it's the 1893 version of the symphony being played.

Well, I've already committed to the Zinman M1, so this comes as good news.

I don't mind listening to the Blumine at all. It's a nice change of pace from the usual Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen which is usually coupled with it.

I have the Wyn Morris Mahler 1 which is the 1893 version with the Blumine. I've only listened to it once, but hopefully I'll be able to spend more time with it this week.

 

[papy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, I bit. The Zinman Mahler 1 arrived on Friday from Amazon. Here's my take: The sound is truly impressive. Detailed, clear, full. No sense of constraint or overloading. THe quiet introduction is breathtaking. I haven't tried it with headphones yet. Performance: clear-headed, restrained, very classical. This is not a heart-on-sleeve M1 like Bernstein. Nor is it turned into bombastic trash like too many performers. Instead, it is played as a symphony, romantic in spirit, with many exhilirating effects. It is played to the hilt. It's more like Kubelik than anything else. It is very refreshing, like his Beethoven and Schumann. I like it very much and will gladly and eagerly purchase M2 later this month. This is not the last word in M1, and won't be to everyone's taste - it's too restrained for that -- but maybe after 40+ years of conductors over-emoting in Mahler (is that possible?) we're heading in new directions. The orchestra, by the way, is superb and the famed orchestras of Berlin and Vienna had better take notice! I could have done without Blumine. It's weak Mahler at best, and it has no business being included unless it's the 1893 version of the symphony being played.

Thanks for your review Mbhaub. Definitely clearer than what I was tring to express in mine !!

I am still not convinced by the SQ of the disc, don't get me wrong, it is above par, but being a SACD, i was expected a clarity along the line of the Abbado M6...maybe wrongly

...maybe my ears had a day off that time around too, i'll see how that evolves with further listenings

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your review Mbhaub. Definitely clearer than what I was tring to express in mine !! I am still not convinced by the SQ of the disc, don't get me wrong, it is above par, but being a SACD, i was expected a clarity along the line of the Abbado M6...maybe wrongly ...maybe my ears had a day off that time around too, i'll see how that evolves with further listenings

I will give the Zinman M1 a try, order placed.......but my reference M1 is Bernstein/Sony and from MB's description may not be my preferred style. I thought the recent Gielen M1 was very good, yourmusic.com was selling it cheap sometime ago......nice modern sound with bold dramatic colorful performance.

While in the Zinman catalog I ordered the remaining two Beethoven piano concerto CDs with Bronfman I don't have now (1 & 2 CD plus 5 CD)

Also I ordered the newly remastered Haitink/CBO M3:

I am not a Haitink fan but this is supposed to be his best Mahler performance, so we shall see.

 

[papy]

I've received this one today :

One of the benchmarks wherever i looked, so trying it now

 

[papy]

Found this review of the Zinman M2 :

http://www.musicweb-international.co...2876871572.htm

Definitely sounds promising indeed !!

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Found this review of the Zinman M2 : http://www.musicweb-international.co...2876871572.htm Definitely sounds promising indeed !!

That reviewer has my attention especially his appreciation of Bernstein/Sony M2 and its superiority over his later DG remake..........will have to get the Zinman M2 I suppose when it is relased domestically.

Also will mention the sound quality of the Klemperer M2 was noticeably improved vs previous CD versions with the latest EMI GROTC relase you show above