[normie610]

Just pulled the trigger on Lumin P1, but the dealer said the lead time is up to 2 months…it’s gonna be a long wait

 

[davehg]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a Lumin X1. I needed a second streamer to power a second system (Leben 600x and Chartwell LS3/5a) and I started wondering what the gains were in the tier above the T2.

Started by listening to a completely different league streamer/ DAC - the DCS Bartok. I’ve been curious about it and decided to hear one. It was a fun experience, and I walked away thinking I should put my T2 into the second system and upgrade my main rig to something in the next tier.

I phoned my Lumin dealer and went to compare the X1 with a T2 Demo they had on hand at a great deal. I started with the X1 and immediately heard the same effortlessness that marked the Bartok. Great inner detail, and I was immediately reminded of how much more like my higher end vinyl rig the sound was. Siblance especially was super natural, and depth and air in spades. So nice. While it would be great to compare head to head with the Bartok, I was quite entranced. Damn - I wasn‘t quite ready to write the check.

Next up was the T2 which I know well, having owned mine for 2 years. The dealer had no T3 on hand. I expected the gap to be considerable given the price difference, but my first reaction was surprise how well the T2 acquitted itself. It was clearly closer to the x1 than the the D2 was to the T2, and while I heard the difference, my cost/benefit meter was leaning heavily towards adding another T2.

Then I switched back to the X1 and damn if I heard the improvements even more clearly. Where the T2 can show some light sizzle and a tinge of glassiness on certain tracks, the X1 was just liquid all the way through, warmer to be sure. Once you hear the difference it tends to be more apparent - you can’t unhear what the X1 is doing better, and if you can write the check, it’s hard to go back. But to the T2‘s credit, it was a great musical competitor, enjoyable, just that much less in direct comparison to the X1.

Still, this should’ve been an easy decision in the T2‘s favor given the price gap but the dealer then sweetened the pot with a super deal on the X1 demo unit and a fair trade for a piece of gear I was keen to swap out of my collection. This made the decision to part with more than I had planned to spend a no brainer. At full retail for a new one, I would have taken a lot more time to hear the options in the $14k range, but this was too hard to say no.

Right now, I’ve had a great few hours with the X1 and it’s affirmed my decision, but as I type this, my original T2 is making gorgeous sounds in my second system. No bad choice - I get the best of the Lumin line up.

At the price paid, the Bartok was not even a close competitor, and my experience with the T2 and the D2 before it give me great confidence as Lumin has been exceptionally reliable and trouble free.

 

[normie610]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a Lumin X1. I needed a second streamer to power a second system (Leben 600x and Chartwell LS3/5a) and I started wondering what the gains were in the tier above the T2.

Started by listening to a completely different league streamer/ DAC - the DCS Bartok. I’ve been curious about it and decided to hear one. It was a fun experience, and I walked away thinking I should put my T2 into the second system and upgrade my main rig to something in the next tier.

I phoned my Lumin dealer and went to compare the X1 with a T2 Demo they had on hand at a great deal. I started with the X1 and immediately heard the same effortlessness that marked the Bartok. Great inner detail, and I was immediately reminded of how much more like my higher end vinyl rig the sound was. Siblance especially was super natural, and depth and air in spades. So nice. While it would be great to compare head to head with the Bartok, I was quite entranced. Damn - I wasn‘t quite ready to write the check.

Next up was the T2 which I know well, having owned mine for 2 years. The dealer had no T3 on hand. I expected the gap to be considerable given the price difference, but my first reaction was surprise how well the T2 acquitted itself. It was clearly closer to the x1 than the the D2 was to the T2, and while I heard the difference, my cost/benefit meter was leaning heavily towards adding another T2.

Then I switched back to the X1 and damn if I heard the improvements even more clearly. Where the T2 can show some light sizzle and a tinge of glassiness on certain tracks, the X1 was just liquid all the way through, warmer to be sure. Once you hear the difference it tends to be more apparent - you can’t unhear what the X1 is doing better, and if you can write the check, it’s hard to go back. But to the T2‘s credit, it was a great musical competitor, enjoyable, just that much less in direct comparison to the X1.

Still, this should’ve been an easy decision in the T2‘s favor given the price gap but the dealer then sweetened the pot with a super deal on the X1 demo unit and a fair trade for a piece of gear I was keen to swap out of my collection. This made the decision to part with more than I had planned to spend a no brainer. At full retail for a new one, I would have taken a lot more time to hear the options in the $14k range, but this was too hard to say no.

Right now, I’ve had a great few hours with the X1 and it’s affirmed my decision, but as I type this, my original T2 is making gorgeous sounds in my second system. No bad choice - I get the best of the Lumin line up.

At the price paid, the Bartok was not even a close competitor, and my experience with the T2 and the D2 before it give me great confidence as Lumin has been exceptionally reliable and trouble free.

Thank you for the comparison. I own the T2 myself and it’s been an outstanding DAC for the past 2 years. On my system it sounds very liquid, rich in tone with great bass, airy treble and outstanding staging & imaging. That being said, I’m always curious about the X1 and the P1, with their fibre optic connection and Lundahl transformers. I was really going back and forth between X1 and P1 (and other DACs e.g. Meitner MA3, Merging+Player, MSB Discrete & Premier, etc.) but then decided to get the P1 instead. With all the glowing reviews and impressions from users on P1, I thought I’d save that extra $4k in price and still get a performance that’s very close to X1.

 

[George Hincapie]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a Lumin X1. I needed a second streamer to power a second system (Leben 600x and Chartwell LS3/5a) and I started wondering what the gains were in the tier above the T2.

Started by listening to a completely different league streamer/ DAC - the DCS Bartok. I’ve been curious about it and decided to hear one. It was a fun experience, and I walked away thinking I should put my T2 into the second system and upgrade my main rig to something in the next tier.

I phoned my Lumin dealer and went to compare the X1 with a T2 Demo they had on hand at a great deal. I started with the X1 and immediately heard the same effortlessness that marked the Bartok. Great inner detail, and I was immediately reminded of how much more like my higher end vinyl rig the sound was. Siblance especially was super natural, and depth and air in spades. So nice. While it would be great to compare head to head with the Bartok, I was quite entranced. Damn - I wasn‘t quite ready to write the check.

Next up was the T2 which I know well, having owned mine for 2 years. The dealer had no T3 on hand. I expected the gap to be considerable given the price difference, but my first reaction was surprise how well the T2 acquitted itself. It was clearly closer to the x1 than the the D2 was to the T2, and while I heard the difference, my cost/benefit meter was leaning heavily towards adding another T2.

Then I switched back to the X1 and damn if I heard the improvements even more clearly. Where the T2 can show some light sizzle and a tinge of glassiness on certain tracks, the X1 was just liquid all the way through, warmer to be sure. Once you hear the difference it tends to be more apparent - you can’t unhear what the X1 is doing better, and if you can write the check, it’s hard to go back. But to the T2‘s credit, it was a great musical competitor, enjoyable, just that much less in direct comparison to the X1.

Still, this should’ve been an easy decision in the T2‘s favor given the price gap but the dealer then sweetened the pot with a super deal on the X1 demo unit and a fair trade for a piece of gear I was keen to swap out of my collection. This made the decision to part with more than I had planned to spend a no brainer. At full retail for a new one, I would have taken a lot more time to hear the options in the $14k range, but this was too hard to say no.

Right now, I’ve had a great few hours with the X1 and it’s affirmed my decision, but as I type this, my original T2 is making gorgeous sounds in my second system. No bad choice - I get the best of the Lumin line up.

At the price paid, the Bartok was not even a close competitor, and my experience with the T2 and the D2 before it give me great confidence as Lumin has been exceptionally reliable and trouble free.

The X1 looks lovely, but the ESS based DAC would dissuade me. I've never liked ESS; resolving but distant vocals and flat soundstage. I've just returned a Weiss 501 MkII for precisely that reason. Initially impressive, but after an hour or so, not.

 

[thingswelike]

The X1 looks lovely, but the ESS based DAC would dissuade me. I've never liked ESS; resolving but distant vocals and flat soundstage. I've just returned a Weiss 501 MkII for precisely that reason. Initially impressive, but after an hour or so, not.

We've had quite a few reviewers mention that LUMIN ESS implementation doesn't sound the same as others.

The StereoNet T3 review springs to mind, but there have been more (SoundRebels for one).
It's possible that many manufacturers follow the ESS reference design in its standard configuration. Our products use a very different hardware design. There are many configurable parameters for ESS chips, and we are not using its default configuration, but apply our own ideas about what is better for SQ.

There also other differences between our circuit design/signal path and others. For example, some manufacturers were criticized for sending all files through the MQA subsystem (which has their own filter requirements for conformity), whereas we ensure that non-MQA PCM files do not go through that same subsystem.

The way we use Leedh Processing is also unique to our specialized hardware and ESS implementation.

Remember that many of us are vinyl fans and one of the reasons LUMIN was initially popular was because it was one of the first with reviews suggesting it didn't sound 'digital'.

I'm not saying that all this definitely makes LUMIN sound the way you want it to, but I would say that dismissing it because of previous ESS experience might not be completely valid and that an audition is always our recommendation.

 

[davehg]

I too started out with a bias against ESS dacs, mostly because the first few examples I heard were cheaper implementations that I didn’t find compelling, and based on various comments I read in forums. When I switched from the D2 which used a well regarded Wolfson DAC, to the T2 which uses the 9028Pro, I heard clear improvements- not subtle at all. That really made me understand that the DAC chip isn’t the core reason for how a DAC sounds.

Fast forward and I’m less focused on the DAC chip used than on the implementation of that DAC chip, especially the power supplies and the analog output stage. The FPGA dacs in products like Chord are well regarded, but when I listened and compared, the Lumin T2 was by far preferable to the Qutest and Hugo. Those two DACs sounded dynamic at first but ultimately fatiguing after extended listening. The Ring DAC used in the DCS is a technical wonder but the X1 sounded just as competitive and it uses the 9038 Sabre dacs. And key in any implementation is the software control of resisters and FPGAs, which you just won’t find in cheaper DACs.

I’m guessing at the upper stratospheric end the Sabre DACs may have limitations. I’m more focused on power supplies, analog stages at the “below $20k” end. Lumin does great in these areas though I wish they had an option to allow a T2 user to upgrade to the LPS used in the X1 (it’s a brute!!). The Meanwell switching power supply used in the D2 and T2 is not at all bad, but it’s a $15 unit at wholesale vs the significantly more expensive LPS in the X1, or even the $400 Sbooster aftermarket LPS. I’m betting they’d wring much more tangible improvements from an LPS than moving to a different DAC implementation.

The X1 looks lovely, but the ESS based DAC would dissuade me. I've never liked ESS; resolving but distant vocals and flat soundstage. I've just returned a Weiss 501 MkII for precisely that reason. Initially impressive, but after an hour or so, not.

 

[BlakeT]

If anyone is looking for a brand new Lumin linear power supply (the stock one that comes with the full-sized U1), shoot me a pm.

 

[George Hincapie]

I'm not saying that all this definitely makes LUMIN sound the way you want it to, but I would say that dismissing it because of previous ESS experience might not be completely valid and that an audition is always our recommendation.

That is a fair argument. I shall see if I can organise a home demo.

 

[normie610]

We've had quite a few reviewers mention that LUMIN ESS implementation doesn't sound the same as others.

The StereoNet T3 review springs to mind, but there have been more (SoundRebels for one).
It's possible that many manufacturers follow the ESS reference design in its standard configuration. Our products use a very different hardware design. There are many configurable parameters for ESS chips, and we are not using its default configuration, but apply our own ideas about what is better for SQ.

There also other differences between our circuit design/signal path and others. For example, some manufacturers were criticized for sending all files through the MQA subsystem (which has their own filter requirements for conformity), whereas we ensure that non-MQA PCM files do not go through that same subsystem.

The way we use Leedh Processing is also unique to our specialized hardware and ESS implementation.

Remember that many of us are vinyl fans and one of the reasons LUMIN was initially popular was because it was one of the first with reviews suggesting it didn't sound 'digital'.

I'm not saying that all this definitely makes LUMIN sound the way you want it to, but I would say that dismissing it because of previous ESS experience might not be completely valid and that an audition is always our recommendation.

Can you please confirm that for Lumin P1, the RCA analog output signal also passes through the Lundahl transformers? Or the Lundahls are only for XLR out?

 

[thingswelike]

Can you please confirm that for Lumin P1, the RCA analog output signal also passes through the Lundahl transformers? Or the Lundahls are only for XLR out?

Confirmed. This is why on Lundahl-equpped models we recommend that only either XLR or RCA is connected. Connecting both simultaneously is beyond the spec of the Lundahl output transformers and is likely to reduce sound quality.

 

[normie610]

Confirmed. This is why on Lundahl-equpped models we recommend that only either XLR or RCA is connected. Connecting both simultaneously is beyond the spec of the Lundahl output transformers and is likely to reduce sound quality.

Thanks! I asked because I read the SoundRebels review of P1 and the reviewer said the analog signal for RCA doesn’t pass through the Lundahl transformers, only XLR does.

 

[thingswelike]

Thanks! I asked because I read the SoundRebels review of P1 and the reviewer said the analog signal for RCA doesn’t pass through the Lundahl transformers, only XLR does.

I'll get clarification from an engineer. Hold tight.

 

[thingswelike]

Thanks! I asked because I read the SoundRebels review of P1 and the reviewer said the analog signal for RCA doesn’t pass through the Lundahl transformers, only XLR does.

I've had this confirmed by an engineer - same output path on X1 P1 S1 A1 T1. Lundahl Output Transformers used for BOTH XLR and RCA.
Perhaps it was the 'balancing' that was being referred to as being on XLR only.
I had a quick look and couldn't find the reference (although it was in Polish). Feel free to send me the paragraph and I'll contact them to ensure it's corrected.

Edit: Found it I think:
https://soundrebels.com/lumin-p1-3/

Translates to:
Behind the DAC section, signal amplification is performed by TI OPA1611 chips. And here is another surprise, because while the signal goes to the RCA sockets directly from the above ICs, on the way to the XLRs there are also Lundahl LL7401 output transformers.

 

[normie610]

I've had this confirmed by an engineer - same output path on X1 P1 S1 A1 T1. Lundahl Output Transformers used for BOTH XLR and RCA.
Perhaps it was the 'balancing' that was being referred to as being on XLR only.
I had a quick look and couldn't find the reference (although it was in Polish). Feel free to send me the paragraph and I'll contact them to ensure it's corrected.

Edit: Found it I think:
https://soundrebels.com/lumin-p1-3/


Translates to:
Behind the DAC section, signal amplification is performed by TI OPA1611 chips. And here is another surprise, because while the signal goes to the RCA sockets directly from the above ICs, on the way to the XLRs there are also Lundahl LL7401 output transformers.

Great! Thanks for the engineer’s confirmation. And yes that’s the exact passage that I read through the English translation. It implies that only the output from XLR passes through the Lundahl transformers. However it’s clear now

 

[normie610]

I've had this confirmed by an engineer - same output path on X1 P1 S1 A1 T1. Lundahl Output Transformers used for BOTH XLR and RCA.

On this note, does this mean that on the T2, it’s ok to connect both XLR and RCA simultaneously?