Low-budget next steps for music listening
Jan 7, 2020 at 12:09 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

sophaskins

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Heya all!

tl;dr: have Sony MDR-V6 already, looking for tips on best way to augment using $100

I've been wanting to spend more time deliberately listening to music (rather than just having it in the background) and I have a rather small budget for improvements. I was hoping y'all would have some good advice on the best way to spend it!

I mostly listen to Big Band jazz, Big Beat electronic, electro-pop, and "indy" guitar bands, though I would like to expand my horizons in to a wider range of jazz. I don't think I'm a "basshead" - what I most want to hear is the emotion of the music.

I currently own a pair of Sony MDR-V6 and a pair of Sony MDR-7506 (bought them a long time ago so I could have the same-ish headphones at work and at home). For sources I basically have an iPhone and various computers with built-in nothing-special sound. I also have a (rather old at this point) Digidesign Mbox2 lying around? In case using that for output would be a good choice. I mostly listen to Google Music streaming, but I have some CDs and would probably be heading more towards CDs / lossless rips.

From the looking around I've done, it seems like a reasonable "starter" headphone setup is to get the Massdrop/Sennheiser HD-6XX and a Schiit Magni/Modi stack, but that is ~$400 and hard to stomach for a hobby I'm just getting in to.

My budget is $100, with a stretch of I'd go up to ~$200 if it seemed like spending only $100 would hardly go anywhere. Do you have tips on a good way to use that money (likely in combo with stuff I already own?) to have a better experience listening to music?
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 12:38 PM Post #2 of 13
I personally think a good dac amp combo is the best way to start. Something like a fiio q1 mkii will cost about a $100 and you can use it with your iphone/computer as well. Plus it has a balanced 2.5mm port for possible future proofing if you decide one day to go from dipping your toes in the audiophile water to doing a cannonball into it lol I would also keep what you have headphone wise and save up for different headphones down the road. Plus you will get instant sound improvements from a dac/amp combo. I started my journey out with a oppo ha2 as my main desktop and mobile setup and after some time slowly upgraded everything. If you absolutely needed headphones over anything else I would say save up a bit and grab some drop sennheiser 58x for $150. While it still needs a amp to get the best sound out of it at least you will have a fun new headphone to listen to.
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 3:54 PM Post #3 of 13
From the looking around I've done, it seems like a reasonable "starter" headphone setup is to get the Massdrop/Sennheiser HD-6XX and a Schiit Magni/Modi stack, but that is ~$400 and hard to stomach for a hobby I'm just getting in to.

Here's the thing though.

For any hobby or sub-part of any hobby where there needs to be some use more than collecting and displaying there will always be these ancilliary costs. For example you don't necessarily have to collect paintings that you need to buy expensive insurance for while keeping them in a room with laser and radar motion sensors. You can for example collect Gundam model kits, and you only need to use say your nailcutter (unless you're too grossed out by that) to clean the snap off plastic points on those 1/144 kits and then an Ikea shelf with some blu tac to display them. Once you get into the point where you're making dioramas, usually recreating scenes from the anime or manga, that's where it gets expensive. For a turn key solution there's a 1/60 size kit of the Impulse Gundam that comes with a spare Sword Silhouette (one of three equipment packs) so you won't have to buy two 1/60 size Impulse Gundams in two different colors just to get the sword equipment pack, put it up flying near the multi role combat pack equipped Impulse Gundam, and then have one of the anti-ship swords in the hands of the otherwise mutli-role equipped Impulse; but then to complete that diorama you're gonna have to get a 1/60 size Freedom Gundam...but then to make it look accurate by that frame on the anime, you're gonna have to start breaking wings off the Freedom, maybe even get a soldering gun to tear a hole through it and stick the Impulse's anti-ship sword through. And at this size any tiny imperfections like improperly lopped off and unsanded connections from the plastic holding the parts in the box need to be smoothed out, so at minimum you're going to invest time if you're not grossed out using the same toenail cutter you use on your actual toes. Want realistic battle wear? You're gonna have to buy a small paint gun and some grey and black paint. Even if you recycle foam to make it look like the sea and beach where this scene was you're still investing on the kits and the equipment.

And then here's another one of my hobbies: cooking and its sub-hobbies aka each equipment type and the food. So for example you can't just get a good quality steak and sear it on a cheap teflon skillet - the only cheap skillet you should be doing that on is cast iron, where the cheap cost is offset by the weight and the maintenance (which for some people is too much, for some reason). You can just grill it, but then that assumes you live in the suburbs and have a backyard instead of living in some small flat downtown that you only managed to afford because you're not paying for a car and there's rent control. And then even if you're on a cheap skillet, normal oil is fine for keeping it from non stick and rusting, but if you live in a relatively humid environment, you either have to make sure you cook often or you have to use an oil that doesn't grow rancid as quickly as cooking oil while still being an edible oil (because, ya know, food), like rapeseed oil, which might not be easy to find in some places.

And then there's knives. A friend asked where I got one of the knives I was using when we were on vacation, how much it was, etc, and he was surprised I got it for $26 off an Amazon retailer and wanted to get one even at its regular price of $56. But then I told him it doesn't end there. It might be cheaper than my other knives that I use at home or when I don't have to board a plane, which is a kit with veg chopper, a paring knife, and a slicer for raw fish that I learned to compensate for when I have to cut through roast meat (because the dedicated slicer is going to do just that one thing and I'm not blowing money on that), but he's still going to have to buy comparable whetstones that I use on those knives. Why? If he uses the kind of stones from a hardware store that isn't for woodworking hobbyists or from a department store he'll end up doing one of two things: a rough edge even on a two sided stone or not knowing whether using only the smoothER (ie still not fine enough) side on the cheap stone is just taking too long to get it sharp or there's something wrong with how he's doing it, unlike my being able to tell him that if he uses the same 1000grit Suehiro that I have he should take only about six passes without forcing the steel against the stone with enough force to dish it in the center. If he's dishing that stone he's pressing on it too hard; if he's at twelve passes he's at the wrong angle. If he's using a cheap stone, I can't tell if getting to 24 passes and not getting a result is normal for that stone, and even if that was normal, why would anyone want a relatively rough edge out of sooooo much time and effort. I told him he's better off buying a cheap knife he might have to sharpen more often or stick to a knife he can get from a local store and have it sharpened every month or so...which within a year ends up costing a lot more than just getting the stones or hell, his own motorized sharpening tool (the only reason I don't even have these over two stones plus a strop is because they take up waaaaaaaaaay too much space; if I had a suburban home I'd have this replace one of those stones, which happens to be the one that wears out faster). Then on top of all that my not ridiculously expensive knives are all bare steel with no chromium, so hohoho, he's asking why I kept wiping them dry after chopping half an onion or slicing up the fillets...all because they'll rust while a comparable hardness stainless steel knife would be more expensive than the ones I use.

Back to audio though...the problem here is getting the Sennheisers. If you opt for those and don't get an amp, it's hard to flesh out whether you just don't like what they sound like or they just sound anemic without an amp, let alone something like a K702 which will have problems other than an anemic low end. The recommendations you get at that point will be to get an amp so it would be clearer, ie if you like them then it's the amp, if you don't then it's the headphone; or to get a different headphone that won't need as much voltage (or current for other headphones), which personally you can just do in the first place.

Note: nothing is foolproof so even if I suggest getting an AKG K553 Mk2 instead so it won't have as much of a need for an amp, that doesn't mean
1. You'd like the sound
2. That they'd be close enough to the sound of an HD600 for example, especially if they fit a little loose on you (the closed back and leather pads might compensate for that though...might)
3. That they'd sound completely fine on whatever you plug them into (assuming they don't fit too loose that the bottom end of the range is just not there anymore)


My budget is $100, with a stretch of I'd go up to ~$200 if it seemed like spending only $100 would hardly go anywhere. Do you have tips on a good way to use that money (likely in combo with stuff I already own?) to have a better experience listening to music?

Maybe the K550 Mk2. Or just get an IEM with BA drivers so they're not as susceptible to high output impedance issues, just not too high sensitivity with too low impedance so they won't hiss either, but also make sure the eartips you use have a tight fit. Something like a Westone UM20 Pro, or something similar but cheaper.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 4:43 PM Post #4 of 13
I have the mdr7506, and they don't particularly need an amp, so upgrading that way won't necessarily give you many gains.
I would recommend the Fidelio X2HR. It's around $120 and a steal at that price. You won't need to get a new amp right away because it is low impedance and sounds good from low powered sources.
Another good option to consider for even less money is the Philips 9500s. They run about $60. They also are low impedance so you don't need to worry about an amp right away. For your taste in music (particularly indie rock) this would be a good choice. They are kind of like a more comfortable Grado, not quite as forward in the mids, but it's similar.
 
Jan 10, 2020 at 10:41 PM Post #5 of 13
Here's the thing though.

For any hobby or sub-part of any hobby where there needs to be some use more than collecting and displaying there will always be these ancilliary costs. For example you don't necessarily have to collect paintings that you need to buy expensive insurance for while keeping them in a room with laser and radar motion sensors. You can for example collect Gundam model kits, and you only need to use say your nailcutter (unless you're too grossed out by that) to clean the snap off plastic points on those 1/144 kits and then an Ikea shelf with some blu tac to display them. Once you get into the point where you're making dioramas, usually recreating scenes from the anime or manga, that's where it gets expensive. For a turn key solution there's a 1/60 size kit of the Impulse Gundam that comes with a spare Sword Silhouette (one of three equipment packs) so you won't have to buy two 1/60 size Impulse Gundams in two different colors just to get the sword equipment pack, put it up flying near the multi role combat pack equipped Impulse Gundam, and then have one of the anti-ship swords in the hands of the otherwise mutli-role equipped Impulse; but then to complete that diorama you're gonna have to get a 1/60 size Freedom Gundam...but then to make it look accurate by that frame on the anime, you're gonna have to start breaking wings off the Freedom, maybe even get a soldering gun to tear a hole through it and stick the Impulse's anti-ship sword through. And at this size any tiny imperfections like improperly lopped off and unsanded connections from the plastic holding the parts in the box need to be smoothed out, so at minimum you're going to invest time if you're not grossed out using the same toenail cutter you use on your actual toes. Want realistic battle wear? You're gonna have to buy a small paint gun and some grey and black paint. Even if you recycle foam to make it look like the sea and beach where this scene was you're still investing on the kits and the equipment.

And then here's another one of my hobbies: cooking and its sub-hobbies aka each equipment type and the food. So for example you can't just get a good quality steak and sear it on a cheap teflon skillet - the only cheap skillet you should be doing that on is cast iron, where the cheap cost is offset by the weight and the maintenance (which for some people is too much, for some reason). You can just grill it, but then that assumes you live in the suburbs and have a backyard instead of living in some small flat downtown that you only managed to afford because you're not paying for a car and there's rent control. And then even if you're on a cheap skillet, normal oil is fine for keeping it from non stick and rusting, but if you live in a relatively humid environment, you either have to make sure you cook often or you have to use an oil that doesn't grow rancid as quickly as cooking oil while still being an edible oil (because, ya know, food), like rapeseed oil, which might not be easy to find in some places.

And then there's knives. A friend asked where I got one of the knives I was using when we were on vacation, how much it was, etc, and he was surprised I got it for $26 off an Amazon retailer and wanted to get one even at its regular price of $56. But then I told him it doesn't end there. It might be cheaper than my other knives that I use at home or when I don't have to board a plane, which is a kit with veg chopper, a paring knife, and a slicer for raw fish that I learned to compensate for when I have to cut through roast meat (because the dedicated slicer is going to do just that one thing and I'm not blowing money on that), but he's still going to have to buy comparable whetstones that I use on those knives. Why? If he uses the kind of stones from a hardware store that isn't for woodworking hobbyists or from a department store he'll end up doing one of two things: a rough edge even on a two sided stone or not knowing whether using only the smoothER (ie still not fine enough) side on the cheap stone is just taking too long to get it sharp or there's something wrong with how he's doing it, unlike my being able to tell him that if he uses the same 1000grit Suehiro that I have he should take only about six passes without forcing the steel against the stone with enough force to dish it in the center. If he's dishing that stone he's pressing on it too hard; if he's at twelve passes he's at the wrong angle. If he's using a cheap stone, I can't tell if getting to 24 passes and not getting a result is normal for that stone, and even if that was normal, why would anyone want a relatively rough edge out of sooooo much time and effort. I told him he's better off buying a cheap knife he might have to sharpen more often or stick to a knife he can get from a local store and have it sharpened every month or so...which within a year ends up costing a lot more than just getting the stones or hell, his own motorized sharpening tool (the only reason I don't even have these over two stones plus a strop is because they take up waaaaaaaaaay too much space; if I had a suburban home I'd have this replace one of those stones, which happens to be the one that wears out faster). Then on top of all that my not ridiculously expensive knives are all bare steel with no chromium, so hohoho, he's asking why I kept wiping them dry after chopping half an onion or slicing up the fillets...all because they'll rust while a comparable hardness stainless steel knife would be more expensive than the ones I use.


@ProtegeManiac,

As an aside, always good to hear your analogies, nice you changed it up a little to talk about knives instead of just the usual cars though not complaining by any stretch as you know... :p
I like affordable knives too, Ikea has good ones sometimes...or Milwaukee Tools...AUS 8 Utility Knife...

Keep up the good work !

Hope you have a great day !
 
Jan 10, 2020 at 10:47 PM Post #6 of 13
@sophaskins,

I would suggest for your budget look into the Lexicon Alpha if you can still get one as they are being phased out otherwise any Focusrite Scarlett Series would work as a good audio interface (essentially pro version of a DAC with recording capabilities).
Also, as a straight head amp, I suggest looking into the Presonus HP 4 as it is an outstanding head amp which subjectively & personally, outperforms many pricier head amps...

The options I listed above should serve you well & if you ever need to change or add to your headphones, I suggest Sony MDR 1AM2.

Feel free to ask more when you need.

Hope you have a great day !
 
Jan 11, 2020 at 1:57 AM Post #7 of 13
@ProtegeManiac,

As an aside, always good to hear your analogies, nice you changed it up a little to talk about knives instead of just the usual cars though not complaining by any stretch as you know... :p
I like affordable knives too, Ikea has good ones sometimes...or Milwaukee Tools...AUS 8 Utility Knife...

Keep up the good work !

Hope you have a great day !

What made me use that one was a recent conversation with my friend who of course I showed how this guy on YT even used a brick to fix and sharpen a chipped Shun. Yes, you can use any stone. No, that guy is very used to sharpening, if you're a new guy you'd have no reference for how long sharpening a dull blade is supposed to take on a stone that isn't very well known, hence my recommendation to him to not get a cheap hardware store stone. That he lives in Japan and Suehiro Cerax 1010 is $42 on Amazon US it's not like he'll blow too much money, not to mention that one is acceptable for stropping to polish it. Too toothy for my needs but he's not gonna slice raw fish or decorative veg. Unless he wants a really smooth finish he doesn't need a Rika 5000 (which I was showing him at the time).
 
Jan 11, 2020 at 11:53 PM Post #8 of 13
What made me use that one was a recent conversation with my friend who of course I showed how this guy on YT even used a brick to fix and sharpen a chipped Shun. Yes, you can use any stone. No, that guy is very used to sharpening, if you're a new guy you'd have no reference for how long sharpening a dull blade is supposed to take on a stone that isn't very well known, hence my recommendation to him to not get a cheap hardware store stone. That he lives in Japan and Suehiro Cerax 1010 is $42 on Amazon US it's not like he'll blow too much money, not to mention that one is acceptable for stropping to polish it. Too toothy for my needs but he's not gonna slice raw fish or decorative veg. Unless he wants a really smooth finish he doesn't need a Rika 5000 (which I was showing him at the time).


Hi @ProtegeManiac,

Agree with you on being able to use any stone, I have seen that video you mention too.
I am well used to sharpening myself & it is almost amazing how many people where I am think crappy grinding machine &/or DMT Diamond crap, usually in combination is good...definitely not.
If I need to do serious overkill sharpening, I use the Tormek grinding wheel with the super fine Japanese stone but otherwise usually just use stout leather or average 2000 grit high level Japanese stone (name escapes me) as my knives usually close to touch sharp.

Years ago now, I actually tried to sharpen a guy's terribly dull badly mis sharpened Global (newer batch with the crapper steel) chef knife (also I believe improper knife technique was also used but he never said) & actually felt the steel roll in on itself then later he blamed me for overcharging him on trying to sharpen the thing properly then he went to aforementioned other standard 'sharpening guy' above & said it was much better after.
Probably got it ground down to bare steel.
So go figure.

Anyway, thanks for the explaination, always interesting to hear what you have to say.

Hopefully both our conversations won't be removed any time soon but that's HF.

Hope you have a great day !
 
Jan 15, 2020 at 8:35 PM Post #9 of 13
Why are people that like music and headphones into sharpening knifes?

I just use a moterized machine, bzzzzzzz one side bzzzzzzzz other side and done for a month or little longer
 
Jan 15, 2020 at 10:15 PM Post #10 of 13
Why are people that like music and headphones into sharpening knifes?

Music is sensation and emotion.

Food is sensation and satisfaction.

Knives (and steel cookware) are to food as instruments and speakers are to making or enjoying music.

Warhammer 40,000 literally has in one kvlt gluttons and chefs as well as musicians and audiophiles, along with the more numerous horndogs.


I just use a moterized machine, bzzzzzzz one side bzzzzzzzz other side and done for a month or little longer

And just like how headphones or speakers have a different impedance, knives have different geometries or need maintenance. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt in audio means "hair on driver" or "overexcursion." On knives it can mean "grinding the cladding line on a double taper Japanese knife because the stated 8deg sharpening angle is 8deg vs the first taper with the cladding line, not 8deg vs the flatter section from spine to cladding line."
 
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Jan 16, 2020 at 12:22 AM Post #11 of 13
Music is sensation and emotion.

Food is sensation and satisfaction.

Knives (and steel cookware) are to food as instruments and speakers are to making or enjoying music.

Warhammer 40,000 literally has in one kvlt gluttons and chefs as well as musicians and audiophiles, along with the more numerous horndogs.


As always, @ProtegeManic,

Agree with all your points. :)
Give me a good quality chef knife which actually has a lasting edge so I can go cut those nice beef tenderloin fillets into delicate cubes then lightly sautee it in a nice wine reduction over using crap or cheap knives on the same meat & just throwing it on the pan without any seasoning...or not knowing basic knife skills...

@Sebastiaan156, the thing is many in this audio hobby forgot about the emotion, feeling & sensation music gives to all those who listen & more often than not, too caught up by measurements, specs, driver technology & implementation as well as the dreaded comparisons...

For this reason, it is sometimes good to discuss related hobbies, maybe someone should restart 'the what music do you cook to' thread...


And just like how headphones or speakers have a different impedance, knives have different geometries or need maintenance. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt in audio means "hair on driver" or "overexcursion." On knives it can mean "grinding the cladding line on a double taper Japanese knife because the stated 8deg sharpening angle is 8deg vs the first taper with the cladding line, not 8deg vs the flatter section from spine to cladding line."


Personally, I like honing the edge as flat as possible so not only does it keep the blade sharp longer but also doesn't destroy the steel.

Just as an aside, @Sebastiaan156, unless you're going through tough meat or cutting a variety of things for average 10 hours a day, that knife edge should last longer though this depends on what knife you're using as well as it seems the edge you're grinding isn't great either...
Not a dig, just curious...

Hope everyone has a great day !
 
Jan 16, 2020 at 4:57 AM Post #12 of 13
@Sebastiaan156, the thing is many in this audio hobby forgot about the emotion, feeling & sensation music gives to all those who listen & more often than not, too caught up by measurements, specs, driver technology & implementation as well as the dreaded comparisons...

I don't see those as mutually exclusive. An accurate response conveys whatever was there to begin with.

I mean, even a solid state amp (assuming a good one to begin with) driving something like a K701 or HD800 isn't going to make Jane Monheit's version of "In the Still of the Night" or Nightwish's "Ever Dream" or "Creek Mary's Blood" sound like a BBC news report or an academic white paper. You just use that kind of analogy in relative terms, like if you prefer the effect of a flea tube amp on high sensitivity fullrange drivers in huge transmission line enclosures.

In a way that obsession with accurate reproduction can be its own source for emotion and satisfaction, the same way that going back to the Warhammer example the kvlt of SLAANESH includes genetics experts. The way Her power works, hell, even the perfect swordsman isn't just perfect because of his skill...She gifted him with the power to resurrect into the body of whoever kills him if they ever felt any tinge of satisfaction over their success, like Steve Jobs laughing at people buying the iPod all the way to the store to order a new Clearaudio turntable.
 
Jan 16, 2020 at 9:28 AM Post #13 of 13
I don't see those as mutually exclusive. An accurate response conveys whatever was there to begin with.

I mean, even a solid state amp (assuming a good one to begin with) driving something like a K701 or HD800 isn't going to make Jane Monheit's version of "In the Still of the Night" or Nightwish's "Ever Dream" or "Creek Mary's Blood" sound like a BBC news report or an academic white paper. You just use that kind of analogy in relative terms, like if you prefer the effect of a flea tube amp on high sensitivity fullrange drivers in huge transmission line enclosures.

In a way that obsession with accurate reproduction can be its own source for emotion and satisfaction, the same way that going back to the Warhammer example the kvlt of SLAANESH includes genetics experts. The way Her power works, hell, even the perfect swordsman isn't just perfect because of his skill...She gifted him with the power to resurrect into the body of whoever kills him if they ever felt any tinge of satisfaction over their success, like Steve Jobs laughing at people buying the iPod all the way to the store to order a new Clearaudio turntable.


@ProtegeManiac,

Not disagreeing...I believe that myself...one of the many reasons I dislike EQing just for its own sake among other things...
Apologies for not being clearer...what I meant was what I referenced others tend to see as mutally exclusive more often than not, personally, I see measurements, specs, etc as a whole nor do I discount one over the other but listening always has the final concensus...

Afte all, even Jude himself says some gear measures terribly but great to listen to & vice versa...

By the way, like the continued Warhammer reference, not a fan of SLAANESH though some aspects are interesting as above...PRAISE KHORNE !
As a final note, Tzeentch ain't bad either...

Keep being awesome !

Hope you have a great day !
 

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