[nautikal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rush340 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just found out that the loudness war got the better of one of my CDs. I was excited to try out my new sound card, had to mess with the X-Fi settings because it was clipping a little. Got everything sounding great, just had to turn the front l/r volume down a bit and disable the other speakers on the front l/r channel. So all was good... then Icky Thump by the White Stripes came up in the playlist. I noticed some bad clipping in the bass drum; not a smooth distortion, but harsh digital clipping. I immediately went to the sound card control panel. The visualization in the X-Fi control panel was showing output levels in the green; shouldn't be clipping. Maybe something went wrong when I ripped it? I checked my 'sources' and found someone else's rip to check against it. Same thing... I pulled up a quick google search for "Icky Thump clipping" and there it was on the Wikipedia page. Apparently it's a known problem with that album. They really put it out like this? I have an Auzentech Forte and Grado SR80s, which I would expect to be nothing compared to the monitors/cans they would be using in a professional studio... They would have to be deaf not to hear this. Luckily, I found out that someone with ears mixed it for vinyl, and I was able to find a rip of that. Sounds soooo much better. I literally could not listen to the CD version for more than a few seconds. I guess I never noticed it before through my old super cheap stereo, but with just my new card and my grados, the clipping was painfully clear. I've heard of the compression and loss of dynamics due to the loudness war, but not to the point of obvious clipping by exceeding the limitations of the format.

An easy way you can check to see if a song is affected by the loudness war is to open it up in a program like Goldwave which displays the waveform of the song.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nautikal /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never said it was legal to pirate music. Yes, I understand it's theft, but its different than actually going in a store and stealing a physical entity. How ****ing difficult is it to understand the difference between implied and explicit costs?

You really are dim aren't you?! This thread is about poor engineering and mastering. Why do you think the engineering and mastering is poor on a lot of albums? It's poor because the record companies are buying cheap services rather than top quality studios and professionals. Why are they going cheap? Because they are not getting the return on investment that makes it worthwhile. Idiots like you try to justify intellectual property theft as not real theft and the rest of us have to pay for it in lower quality recordings.

That little rant you posted a link to is obviously someone who does not know how the industry works and is angry because they were probably fired by a record label. Seems like a good idea to support the musicians themselves and cut out the rest of the industry. Yep, great idea, and where are these musicians going to record all their wonderful music and who is going to mix and master it? If copyright laws are bypassed, who is going to write, compose and arrange the music? You think maybe all the proceeds from a recording go to the record label and that the quality of music is going to improve if all composers are amateurs and hobbyists?

I've worked with record labels for many years and there is a lot I would change if I were running them. However, destroying an entire industry because you don't like how some of the record labels operate is complete stupidity and ignorance.

It's simple, the more people steal music rather than pay for it, the lower the product quality is going to be and threads like this one are going to be more common. It won't matter how good your DAC is or what cans you've got if what you are trying to playback is crap! You sit on this thread picking faults in recordings (which you've probably stolen) and moaning about poor workmanship and it hasn't crossed that pea brain of yours that it's people like you who are causing it. Now what part of this is too "screwing difficult" for you to understand?

G

 

[haloxt]

I don't think things will stop getting louder because loud is what sounds good on crap and crap is what people use. All we can do to ever avenge ourselves of the increase in bad music is to suck them so dry and make p2p so ingrained in public opinion that there's no way they can ever prosecute against illegal filesharing or put a stop to it. Musicians and record companies will lose like Napoleon's army in Russia ;] and like Emperor Palpaltine says, And there shall be peace.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think things will stop getting louder because loud is what sounds good on crap and crap is what people use. All we can do to ever avenge ourselves of the increase in bad music is to suck them so dry and make p2p so ingrained in public opinion that there's no way they can ever prosecute against illegal filesharing or put a stop to it. Musicians and record companies will lose like Napoleon's army in Russia ;] and like Emperor Palpaltine says, And there shall be peace.

Yep, peace without professional music, great plan. You just don't get it, "avenging yourself" will not make music better but worse. There is more bad music out there because all the record companies are spending less because people like you are stealing rather than buying. Can't you see that you are not avenging anything, just proving your ignorance of how a music product is made?

If you are not happy with a product then write and tell them why, don't come up with pathetic and childish excuses for theft!!

G

 

[nautikal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif You really are dim aren't you?! This thread is about poor engineering and mastering. Why do you think the engineering and mastering is poor on a lot of albums? It's poor because the record companies are buying cheap services rather than top quality studios and professionals. Why are they going cheap? Because they are not getting the return on investment that makes it worthwhile. Idiots like you try to justify intellectual property theft as not real theft and the rest of us have to pay for it in lower quality recordings. That little rant you posted a link to is obviously someone who does not know how the industry works and is angry because they were probably fired by a record label. Seems like a good idea to support the musicians themselves and cut out the rest of the industry. Yep, great idea, and where are these musicians going to record all their wonderful music and who is going to mix and master it? If copyright laws are bypassed, who is going to write, compose and arrange the music? You think maybe all the proceeds from a recording go to the record label and that the quality of music is going to improve if all composers are amateurs and hobbyists? I've worked with record labels for many years and there is a lot I would change if I were running them. However, destroying an entire industry because you don't like how some of the record labels operate is complete stupidity and ignorance. It's simple, the more people steal music rather than pay for it, the lower the product quality is going to be and threads like this one are going to be more common. It won't matter how good your DAC is or what cans you've got if what you are trying to playback is crap! You sit on this thread picking faults in recordings (which you've probably stolen) and moaning about poor workmanship and it hasn't crossed that pea brain of yours that it's people like you who are causing it. Now what part of this is too "screwing difficult" for you to understand? G

Wrong. The loudness war isn't a result of record companies using cheap recording and mastering services. You really think that albums are compressed because the mastering engineer was incompetent and thought that's how albums are supposed to be mastered? In reality, the engineers hate compressing the album, but they have no choice because that is what the record companies want. If they don't compress it, they get no business. There is only a small market for hi-fidelity recordings and consequently only a few recording/mastering studios that produce hi-fidelity recordings. If your normal mastering engineer decided one day he wasn't going to produce compressed albums anymore, he would get no business.

Here's an excerpt from a letter "written by Angelo Montrone, a vice president for A&R (the folks who scout and sign music acts) for One Haven Music, a Sony Music company:
'There's something . . . sinister in audio that is causing our listeners fatigue and even pain while trying to enjoy their favorite music. It has been propagated by A&R departments for the last eight years: The complete abuse of compression in mastering (forced on the mastering engineers against their will and better judgment).'" (Everything Louder Than Everything Else)

Here's what Ted Jensen, mastering engineer of Metallica's Death Magnetic had to say in an email to a fan complaining about the compression of the album:
"I’m certainly sympathetic to your reaction, I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case the mixes were already brick walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice it to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here. Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else." (I GOT A RESPONSE FROM TED - Metallicabb.com)

"Record labels ask the mastering engineers who work on his CDs to crank up the sound levels so high that even the soft parts sound loud. " (The Death of High Fidelity : Rolling Stone)

So no, this isn't about the record companies "going cheap" on post-production. It's about the record companies ruining music. Next time you insult me, make sure you know what you're talking about.

And as far as "people like me causing it", the loudness war started becoming bad in the early to mid 90s, before p2p. Maybe you should try an argument backed by evidence as opposed to an ad hominem argument.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep, peace without professional music, great plan. You just don't get it, "avenging yourself" will not make music better but worse. There is more bad music out there because all the record companies are spending less because people like you are stealing rather than buying. Can't you see that you are not avenging anything, just proving your ignorance of how a music product is made? If you are not happy with a product then write and tell them why, don't come up with pathetic and childish excuses for theft!! G

I'm not giving excuses for theft, I'm saying we should kill music, record companies and musicians. You think it's bad to bankrupt an entire industry because I don't like certain parts of it. I don't like any aspect of the music industry, I want it to be entirely wiped out. If you think I'm arguing economic warfare against record companies on behalf of musicians, think again. I want all of them to die mkay?

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nautikal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wrong. The loudness war isn't a result of record companies using cheap recording and mastering services. You really think that albums are compressed because the mastering engineer was incompetent and thought that's how albums are supposed to be mastered? In reality, the engineers hate compressing the album, but they have no choice because that is what the record companies want. If they don't compress it, they get no business. There is only a small market for hi-fidelity recordings and consequently only a few recording/mastering studios that produce hi-fidelity recordings. If your normal mastering engineer decided one day he wasn't going to produce compressed albums anymore, he would get no business. So no, this isn't about the record companies "going cheap" on post-production. It's about the record companies ruining music. Next time you insult me, make sure you know what you're talking about.

Thanks for telling me about the loudness wars, what evidence or knowledge would I have, I've only worked in the industry as a professional for 25 years. And your professional experience in the industry is ...? I've been involved in the loudness wars debate since you were still in diapurs, so next time, you make sure you know what you are talking about!

Why do you think the record companies want their music louder, you think they just like loud music or you think maybe their sales figures prove that louder sells more? Where have they got this information, from the consumer of course where else, it certainly isn't from us experienced engineers, producers or mastering engineers. As you have quoted, it's us who have tried to stand up against the loudness wars.

So what is your solution to the problem? Destroy the industry and those of us trying to make a stand for higher quality. How do you think you are going to get higher quality if the record companies are looking to cut costs and employ amateurs or beginners rather than highly experienced professionals? Or perhaps you have proof that the number of top quality studios is actually increasing rather than decreasing?

Over compression is only one of the problems facing modern music production and mastering. You would hardly notice the loudness wars if the rest of the recording and production were top class. But then you know this already, as you are the expert!

<mod edit>
G

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for telling me about the loudness wars, what evidence or knowledge would I have, I've only worked in the industry as a professional for 25 years. And your professional experience in the industry is ...? I've been involved in the loudness wars debate since you were still in diapurs, so next time, you make sure you know what you are talking about! Why do you think the record companies want their music louder, you think they just like loud music or you think maybe their sales figures prove that louder sells more? Where have they got this information, from the consumer of course where else, it certainly isn't from us experienced engineers, producers or mastering engineers. As you have quoted, it's us who have tried to stand up against the loudness wars. G

For someone that claims to work in the industry, you really are clueless:

"The loudness war (or loudness race) is the music industry's tendency to record, produce, and broadcast music at progressively increasing levels of loudness to attempt to create a sound that stands out from others."

Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[haloxt]

I'm being childish and trolling but my point is also valid, I think all this economics crap is just a red herring to prevent people from realizing just how powerful music is in controlling our opinions. And it has been a great propaganda tool utilized for all cultural revolutions in the last half century even to this day. I fear for all the ten year olds watching Madonna music videos and imitating it and their parents thinking its cute, but I will dutifully upload her albums to those ten year olds and expose their defenseless and malleable minds to prostitute propaganda in my crusade to bankrupt Madonna and her demonic cohorts because no war is without casualties, and this music war is a real war (not a fake war like the loudness wars, loudness is a plus to these satanists because it is good for brain damage like heavy metal not necessarily good for money) that has been going on since before you were a sperm cell gregorio.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco /img/forum/go_quote.gif For someone that claims to work in the industry, you really are clueless: "The loudness war (or loudness race) is the music industry's tendency to record, produce, and broadcast music at progressively increasing levels of loudness to attempt to create a sound that stands out from others." Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the next paragraph on that wiki page states: "In the case of CDs, the war stems from artists' and producers' desires to create CDs that sound as loud as possible..."

So if you believe the accuracy of wikipedia without question, then in fact it's all the fault of the artists and producers and nothing to do with the record labels at all. Which makes the argument for stealing from the record labels even more stupid.

In fact there are a number of inaccuracies in that page. The third paragraph is inccurate as well, it's not just an increasing ratio of compression, it's Limiting, which has a ratio of infinity:1.

And what about the "Opponents" section: "This practice has been condemned by several recording industry professionals ...". Several industry professionals, what rubbish. There are hundreds, probably thousands of us, not several. There are forum threads going back more than a decade on professional recording sites (like ProTools' forums) where all the professionals roundly condemned the loudness wars and discuss how to combat it.

I can understand that you are ignorant enough not to be able to question all you read on wiki but that's no excuse to call me clueless when in fact it is you who is clueless. Unless of course you value ignorance over knowledge!

G

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif And the next paragraph on that wiki page states: "In the case of CDs, the war stems from artists' and producers' desires to create CDs that sound as loud as possible..." So if you believe the accuracy of wikipedia without question, then in fact it's all the fault of the artists and producers and nothing to do with the record labels at all. Which makes the argument for stealing from the record labels even more stupid. In fact there are a number of inaccuracies in that page. The third paragraph is inccurate as well, it's not just an increasing ratio of compression, it's Limiting, which has a ratio of infinity:1. And what about the "Opponents" section: "This practice has been condemned by several recording industry professionals ...". Several industry professionals, what rubbish. There are hundreds, probably thousands of us, not several. There are forum threads going back more than a decade on professional recording sites (like ProTools' forums) where all the professionals roundly condemned the loudness wars and discuss how to combat it. <mod edit> G

I would believe something that has been published compared to some anonymous person on the internet claiming to work in the music industry for 25 years under the nick name of "gregorio."

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would believe something that has been published compared to some anonymous person on the internet claiming to work in the music industry for 25 years under the nick name of "gregorio."

So, let me get this straight, you believe some anonymous person on the internet if they write on wiki but nowhere else is valid?

If you are going to argue, at least do your homework. The loudness war is not a simple problem or solution. You don't want to believe me, then read this article: Dynamics are Dead, Long Live Dynamics-Mastering Engineers Debate Music’s Loudness Wars

BTW, this article is one of the sources listed on the wiki article. Have a good read and come back to me if you have any questions. And to put you straight, again, Gregorio is not my nickname.

G

 

[Meliboeus]

I wonder why the labels don't jsut make a good mastering and put it on cd\dvd\wathever, then " compressed the hell out of it " and distribute it via itunes etc., i doubt it will cost very much more ( how long does the compression process take durning mastering ? ). And after all is for casual shuffled listening on an ipod that it makes sense to be louder than everyone else, a compressed track will probably sound even better on very low quality equipment. Two versions for two different targets of use.

 

[Rempert]

In the context of just the last 20 years and the types of music that are relevant to this discussion, is it really true that the louder songs sound better on consumer sources? Are ipods outputs actually that weak, that a pop CD from the late 80s or early 90s will be too dynamic to listen to at a comfortable level without distortion or a third party headphone amp? I find it all pretty hard to believe. It wasn't so many years ago that I was using $40 computer speakers as my stereo, and I don't remember every thinking "Man, this pop song is so dynamic that it's going to blow my system if I listen at a reasonable level!"

 

[Meliboeus]

I think the supposed risk to "blow systems" is a bit of an exxageration...that was not the reason why the loudness war started, there's only marketing involved, labels just gather statistical evidence: louder records apparently sell more, so... they want them loud...