[astroid]

I know that lossless files (wav, alac, flac etc) are all bit perfect copies but can the decoder give different results with the different formats.
The reson i ask is that through my amp at home i can detect a difference between output of wav and flac on my Iriver P7.
The P7 is doing the decoding and wav sounds more dynamic to my ears, i have picked wav blind 8/10 times (ripped from same cd)
The volume on the player is set the same for both, could the files have different gain?
Just curious...

 

[Menisk]

There are so many threads on this and all they end up with is bickering. Some people say they sound different others don't. I haven't listened for myself, but if they do indeed sound different no one here will be able to tell you why.

 

[anetode]

There's no reductio ad bickering at play: if you can consistently tell the difference, then something is wrong in the chain of decoding, amplifying and physical reproduction of the signal. The choice of lossless format itself is irrelevant, if you suspect a problem with a decoder you should try listening to a different one (there are multiple options out there, including open source solutions).

 

[Ham Sandwich]

I can think of many reasons why WAV and FLAC could sound different and in fact be different. All of the reasons have to do with the software playback path. It is very possible to have a different software path for WAV and various compressed lossless formats even if you are using the same player for all formats. Unless you know for certainty that the software path is exactly equivalent for both formats then there exists the possibility that the playback of one lossless format is in fact different from another lossless format or even WAV.

One way to know would be to use an open source media player and have the tools and the knowledge to trace and debug to see exactly what is going on and what processing gets done for each format. Few people have the ability to do that.

Some possible reasons for differences off the top of my head:

WAV files could be processed natively by the media player while FLAC ends up going through a DirectShow filter (assuming Windows). DirectShow can get messy and there is no guarantee that the audio path and audio processing done by DirectShow will be the same on various computers.

FLAC files can contain ReplayGain settings while WAV files do not. If the media player uses the ReplayGain settings to change the playback level you will hear a difference between WAV and FLAC.

 

[SirDrexl]

He's using an MP3 player, so he can't change the software (unless it supports RockBox or something).

All I know to try is to go through the player's settings and see if maybe you've enabled the EQ or some other processing for FLAC or WAV but not the other format.

 

[MrGreen]

Yes they can sound different. Hooray placebo.
Is the difference actually there? No.

If they do I'd suggest he get a new player/software

 

[B-Dawk20]

Sorry to use your thread but a quick question guys. Can you tell the difference between 320 mp3's and lossless audio if the mp3 is coded correctly or whatever?

 

[krmathis]

Some claim to hear an audible difference between lossless codecs indeed.
Not all sure I trust their ears on that, since the files contain the exact same (100% identical) audio data. But then again this audio data is decoded on the fly and there is always the risk of running out of CPU steam to keep up, or even a faulty decoder.

So I say it is plausible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry to use your thread but a quick question guys. Can you tell the difference between 320 mp3's and lossless audio if the mp3 is coded correctly or whatever?

That is not related to this threads topic at all.
Please search, cause I am sure you find the answer. Or if needed create a thread of your own.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry to use your thread but a quick question guys. Can you tell the difference between 320 mp3's and lossless audio if the mp3 is coded correctly or whatever?

I personally don't hear much of an appreciable difference between 192 and 320, but I can hear the difference from lossless if I listen carefully.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry to use your thread but a quick question guys. Can you tell the difference between 320 mp3's and lossless audio if the mp3 is coded correctly or whatever?

You're better off asking this on hydrogenaudio than here.

 

[haloxt]

I tried looking for answers, this is the best I found

Quote:

> Ask yourself this: if you listen to the same song file twice does it > ever sound different? If the answer is yes then there is no point even > talking about listening for differences between wav and flac! We have no > fixed baseline. > > If the answer is no, then we can carry on trying to identify possible > differences between wav and flac replay... This is a good point and someone already discussed it, remember Eraclito and the river? Still you recognising the river? Did you prefer it when is clear or when is dark becouse clouds in the sky? It's always the same river, try to mesure it! I have to say I dont see the sun reflected on his surface when sky is clear, just becouse you could not set apart is effect from the (major) others? Try to wait for sunset or cover the river and repeat tests... P.s. In metaphor, my question is: I do prefer stay by the river in a sunny day, do someone the same? What are you feeling better? Not realy intrested in much other, i'll never able to make sun shining in a cloudy day, nor im asking someone else to do.

The same person also said

Quote:

I've tried again the "Blind Test" between WAV-> PCM and FLAC -> PCM in two different ways: 1) Listening to just one file at once, result 8/10 correct. 2) Listening 20 sec of 1 file, then the same 20 sec of the other and try to individuate the FLAC one, result 9/10 correct. In both case My wife was randomly selecting the file to play, I was not able to see her and she was writing down results. This was the better 'near blind' test I could arrange, but I stress that the major difference become clear to me after a much longer listening session!

The posts are worth reading if you are interested in the topic

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321

 

[jcx]

extract the flac to .wav and compare the original and formerly compressed wav with:

Audio DiffMaker

should show if meaningful differences exist even if alignment problems makes bit comparison difficult

 

[b0dhi]

Decode the flac to a wav file, then compare the two as in the blind test you've done. This will definitely reveal the cause of the difference.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirDrexl /img/forum/go_quote.gif He's using an MP3 player, so he can't change the software (unless it supports RockBox or something). All I know to try is to go through the player's settings and see if maybe you've enabled the EQ or some other processing for FLAC or WAV but not the other format.

True. My reply was more focused on potential differences in a PC setup. MP3 players have the same and similar issues -- different code paths for different formats. If the different code path causes different processing and/or conversions to be done on the audio data then there is the possibility for audible and real differences.

In MP3 players you can have some formats decoded in software on the CPU and other formats decoded in hardware on a special purpose DSP. That's two very different code paths designed by two (or more) very different engineering teams. There is no telling what kind of funny business and shortcuts are done on the DSP for decoding. What goes on inside the DSP is beyond the control of the software developers making the software for the MP3 player.

Based on software development, and the mess that real world actual software actually is, there is reason to believe that there actually could be audible differences in a lossless compressed format vs. WAV.

If the code and processing done on FLAC vs. WAV is equivalent there should be no audible or even measurable differences between the FLAC output and WAV output. The problem is that in a closed source system you cannot be sure that the code and processing actually is equivalent.

I'm mainly playing devils advocate here. I'm not one who believes WAV sounds better than FLAC.

 

[B-Dawk20]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally don't hear much of an appreciable difference between 192 and 320, but I can hear the difference from lossless if I listen carefully.

Thank you for that. I'm sorry again for using OPs thread but I just wanted a quick yes or no is all. I'll try going to that hydrogen audio thing and ask there.