[B-Dawk20]

Hey there Head-Fi im back at it and got the itch again. I've spent the later part of last year upgrading my headphone section of my setup and topped it off with a Schiit Lyr 2. I knew though that it was being held back by my Maverick D1 which is a solid piece of electronics but the weaklink to an otherwise fine setup in my opinion.

So now i really want my DAC to be my best component. I believe that you can have many headphones and a few amps to suit them but you only need one good DAC to support a good chain. So while im not ready to go $5K+ end game DACs, I think I am ready to make a jump to the $1000-2000 range but prefereably on the lower end. I use my computer mostly so a USB is preferred but I have optical out so its not 100% necessary. Other than that, I just want a great clean sound thats worth the money.

I havent found much but here is what I got so far.
Schiit Gungnir - Seems like a natural partner for my Lyr 2
Schiit Yggdrasil - Too expensive but if its worth it...maybe.
Sony UDA-1 - I remember seeing this was a great bang for your buck.
Sony HAP-S1 - I like the interface...but does it actually have a great DAC?


I wish i knew more to help you guys out.

 

[spdtdl]

ifi iDSD or iDAC2

 

[Me x3]

Hey there Head-Fi im back at it and got the itch again. I've spent the later part of last year upgrading my headphone section of my setup and topped it off with a Schiit Lyr 2. I knew though that it was being held back by my Maverick D1 which is a solid piece of electronics but the weaklink to an otherwise fine setup in my opinion.

So now i really want my DAC to be my best component. I believe that you can have many headphones and a few amps to suit them but you only need one good DAC to support a good chain. So while im not ready to go $5K+ end game DACs, I think I am ready to make a jump to the $1000-2000 range but prefereably on the lower end. I use my computer mostly so a USB is preferred but I have optical out so its not 100% necessary. Other than that, I just want a great clean sound thats worth the money.

I havent found much but here is what I got so far.
Schiit Gungnir - Seems like a natural partner for my Lyr 2
Schiit Yggdrasil - Too expensive but if its worth it...maybe.
Sony UDA-1 - I remember seeing this was a great bang for your buck.
Sony HAP-S1 - I like the interface...but does it actually have a great DAC?


I wish i knew more to help you guys out.

 
Diminishing returns strikes hard at this point and even cheap DACs are typically a strong link in the chain.
A Schiit Bifrost 4490 will surely make your Lyr 2 the weakest link (let headphones aside)
 
So, yeah, you can get a Bifrost 4490 and call it a day.
Buy more headphones, there's where important differences exist.
 
If you really want to buy a top class DAC, even when that's hardly needed at this point, then I'm pretty sure you can't go wrong with the Gungnir Multibit.
 
The Matrix X-Sabre seems really good as well, although multibit guys will surely say that Gungnir MB is a tad better.

 

[B-Dawk20]

After reading a few guides I'm also interested in these DACs. I would probably sell my Lyr if I got some of them though.

Oppa HA-1
Mytek Stereo 192
Woo Audio WDS1
Benchmark DAC2
LavryBlack D11

 

[fjrabon]

I've always felt that Bifrost was more the partner for the Lyr than GuMBy is (and I'd definitely go with GuMBy if I was stepping up to the Gungnir level).  Yggy would be a bit of a waste considering the rest of your system.  I wouldn't bother with Yggy unless I was going all TOTL.  I'm talking a setup like Balanced HE1000/LCD3/HE6 + Mjolnir before I'd worry about Yggy.

 

[B-Dawk20]

Diminishing returns strikes hard at this point and even cheap DACs are typically a strong link in the chain.
A Schiit Bifrost 4490 will surely make your Lyr 2 the weakest link (let headphones aside)

So, yeah, you can get a Bifrost 4490 and call it a day.
Buy more headphones, there's where important differences exist.

If you really want to buy a top class DAC, even when that's hardly needed at this point, then I'm pretty sure you can't go wrong with the Gungnir Multibit.

The Matrix X-Sabre seems really good as well, although multibit guys will surely say that Gungnir MB is a tad better.

I think I more or less agree with you honestly. My goal here is really to buy a DAC and never have to buy another one or at least not for another 5 or 6 years like the one I currently use. Something I know won't be a weak part in my chain when I move up in the higher ranks of amps and headphones. Especially now that I think I've identified the DAC as the current weakest link.

So yeah, I realize the DACs I'm looking into are above necessity. But I just want to end this part of my audio journey...for now lol.

 

[fjrabon]

I think I more or less agree with you honestly. My goal here is really to buy a DAC and never have to buy another one or at least not for another 5 or 6 years like the one I currently use. Something I know won't be a weak part in my chain when I move up in the higher ranks of amps and headphones. Especially now that I think I've identified the DAC as the current weakest link.

So yeah, I realize the DACs I'm looking into are above necessity. But I just want to end this part of my audio journey...for now lol.

the issue with DAC upgrades isn't so much quality levels, like it is with amps, so much as technology changes on the DAC side faster.  The DAC in the AudioEngine D1 ($150ish), for example, is a better DAC than almost any top of the line DAC from 8 years ago. It just simply has technology in it that didn't even exist back then.  Essentially, as long as it will play DSD, (and most any mid level DAC will do that these days) it's as future proof as any other DAC.  The Yggy is no more future proof than the Modi2 Uber is.  
 
I think it's possible to buy an amp that will still stand up to anything that's out there 5-10 years from now.  With DACs however, that technology is changing so fast that 8 years from now, TOTL DACs will be far surpassed not just by other TOTL DACs, but even mid level stuff will outstrip it by a fair bit.

 

[B-Dawk20]

So in your opinion, you say don't buy a high end DAC now because it will be surpassed in 8 years by mid-fi DACs? Well first off, honestly that's fine. It makes sense.

But really the problem just comes in simple logic. Unless TOTL DACs are just never worth it, then I simply don't agree. I found recommendations even to this day for one of the DACs I listed there which is five or 6 years old. Maybe I'd want to buy a newer DAC to get more modern tech inside, but obviously that older DAC is still a great component today, though maybe Pat its prime. All's that means to me is that in 5 or 6 years, if I feel I need a new DAC, there will be options for me. But in 2-3 years I won't feel like I need to upgrade my DAC while I work on the other parts of my chain (which is really just the amp). When I want a future proof DAC, I don't need for it to still sound as good as the new top of the line DACs in 8 years. I need it to sound great with the new headphones and amps I'll be getting in the next 2-4 years which may only be a few to be honest.

I think beyond an HD800 and whatever amps I choose to couple with my current stock of headphones I'm good to go. What I don't want is to buy an HD800 and a high end amp in a year or two and be stuck with a mid range DAC when I could of made the choice to solidify that part of the system.

But once again, if you think that it's never worth it really to buy high end DACs then I can see where you are coming from. Or maybe I'm.just misinterpreting you? Idk.

 

[B-Dawk20]

In short their are a few great headphones out there that aren't going to go away. My favorite headphone the HD650 is now 13 years old and I have still never enjoyed a headphone as much overall. I don't think it's unreasonable to try and get a great DAC that matches the vision of my system in the future. But maybe I should wait until I get the amp and everything else before upgrading the DAC? Only problem is I have to drop $700-800 on a DAC for now and $2000 later on.

I dunno, you bring up interesting points though and I appreciate your opinion! Interested to hear more.

 

[fjrabon]

So in your opinion, you say don't buy a high end DAC now because it will be surpassed in 8 years by mid-fi DACs? Well first off, honestly that's fine. It makes sense.

But really the problem just comes in simple logic. Unless TOTL DACs are just never worth it, then I simply don't agree. I found recommendations even to this day for one of the DACs I listed there which is five or 6 years old. Maybe I'd want to buy a newer DAC to get more modern tech inside, but obviously that older DAC is still a great component today, though maybe Pat its prime. All's that means to me is that in 5 or 6 years, if I feel I need a new DAC, there will be options for me. But in 2-3 years I won't feel like I need to upgrade my DAC while I work on the other parts of my chain (which is really just the amp). When I want a future proof DAC, I don't need for it to still sound as good as the new top of the line DACs in 8 years. I need it to sound great with the new headphones and amps I'll be getting in the next 2-4 years which may only be a few to be honest.

I think beyond an HD800 and whatever amps I choose to couple with my current stock of headphones I'm good to go. What I don't want is to buy an HD800 and a high end amp in a year or two and be stuck with a mid range DAC when I could of made the choice to solidify that part of the system.

But once again, if you think that it's never worth it really to buy high end DACs then I can see where you are coming from. Or maybe I'm.just misinterpreting you? Idk.

no, I'm saying if your reason is "I want to be done with needing to upgrade a DAC" as the reason for buying a top-end DAC, then that'll turn out faulty.  TOTL DACs are worth it, if you're going all-in on a through and through TOTL setup.  But a Lyr2 + a Q701/LCD2/HD650/HE500 in single ended will be wasting a lot of the quality of the DAC you're buying, as that back end just won't be able to resolve to the level that the Yggy is giving it.  
 
My philosophy is don't upgrade your DAC until it's become by far the weak link in the chain.  Because DACs depreciate faster than the rest of the chain does in value and make the least audible difference in the sound, and that difference is even less audible if the back end of your sound chain isn't at or above that level.  So, if you buy a Yggy today, and match it with the Lyr2 and a Q701 or whatever, by the time you get the rest of your system up to par with the DAC, the DAC will start to be showing its age anyway, and will take a huge hit on the re-sale market if you decide you want to upgrade the Yggy so that its on par with the rest of your setup and plays whatever format is king at the time.  At least with Schiit you can upgrade, but even then it's several hundred dollars for the upgrade.  Like Mx3 said, diminishing returns hits super fast in modern DACs.  The difference between a good mid-fi DAC and the absolute top end is way less than the difference between TOTL headphones and mid-fi headphones.  And still less than the difference in TOTL and mid-fi amps.  It's the least bang for your buck part of the system, other than audiophile USB cables (LOL).
 
Think of it this way, the Bifrost 4490 is better than anything that was on the market 3 years ago.  So, if you got the Yggy today, and then took a couple of years to get the rest of the system up to par with the Yggy, by that time you'll be right back where you were.  If, instead, you focus on your headphones first, then your amp, those parts will stand the test of time much better, so that when you're ready to finally go all-in on a TOTL DAC, you can actually get everything out of the DAC.  Instead of having untapped potential for a couple of years, and then having an outdated "used to be TOTL" DAC.  

 

[fjrabon]

Also, think of it this way, for the price of a Yggy + selling the Lyr2 and some of your mid-fi cans, you could go: GuMBy -> Mjolnir -> HE6/HD800 balanced and blow the doors off a Yggy + Lyr2 + HD650 setup.  

 

[B-Dawk20]

Well first of all, unless I have only had it for a month or two, I don't sell my equipment. If I like it, I keep it or basically give it away after a long while (maybe sell it to a friend for 90% off or something). So resale value isn't a factor for me really.

And secondly, based off your statements you are saying the Schiit Bifrost 4490 is a better DAC than both the Mytek Stereo 192, Benchmark DAC2, and others which are 3 years old by now? DACs that are still considered top end DACs today from my short research and cost twice the price of the Bifrost 4490.

 

[fjrabon]

Well first of all, unless I have only had it for a month or two, I don't sell my equipment. If I like it, I keep it or basically give it away after a long while (maybe sell it to a friend for 90% off or something). So resale value isn't a factor for me really.

And secondly, based off your statements you are saying the Schiit Bifrost 4490 is a better DAC than both the Mytek Stereo 192, Benchmark DAC2, and others which are 3 years old by now? DACs that are still considered top end DACs today from my short research and cost twice the price of the Bifrost 4490.

alright, well it looks like you've made up your mind, and I guess sometimes that's the point of threads like this, to realize you've already made up your mind. I've done the same thing before, created an advice thread and then realized I was constantly arguing for one position, to realize that's what I really wanted to do, regardless of what anybody said.  It's kind of like the "flip a coin and see which side you're hoping comes up, then ignore the result and go with the side you were hoping for" advice.  Have fun with the Gumby/Yggy with Lyr2.  I owned the Lyr2 before and it's great.

 

[B-Dawk20]

alright, well it looks like you've made up your mind, and I guess sometimes that's the point of threads like this, to realize you've already made up your mind. I've done the same thing before, created an advice thread and then realized I was constantly arguing for one position, to realize that's what I really wanted to do, regardless of what anybody said.  It's kind of like the "flip a coind and see which side you're hoping comes up, then ignore the result and go with the side you were hoping for" advice.  Have fun with the Gumby/Yggy with Lyr2.  I owned the Lyr2 before and it's great.

Whoa, that was a legitimate question man. I'm nowhere near made up my mind. but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to question your logic. I'm actually leaning TOWARD the Bifrost 4490 because YOU have been diligent, and eloquent about giving your advice. But this is money and an important decision and I'm not going to take what you say just as is. When I tell someone I appreciate their advice, I don't just say it, I mean it.

So no, I'm not dropping any money yet, but what you are saying is not something I've seen other people do, so I'm just trying to get it all together.

 

[fjrabon]

Whoa, that was a legitimate question man. I'm nowhere near made up my mind. but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to question your logic. I'm actually leaning TOWARD the Bifrost 4490 because YOU have been diligent, and eloquent about giving your advice. But this is money and an important decision and I'm not going to take what you say just as is. When I tell someone I appreciate their advice, I don't just say it, I mean it.

So no, I'm not dropping any money yet, but what you are saying is not something I've seen other people do, so I'm just trying to get it all together.

I didn't mean that in a negative way, I tried to edit it to make that clearer.  What I'm saying is that I think your responses are indicative of what you really want to do, and if you follow my advice and go with the 4490, you'll probably always wonder.  Every slightly mushy snare hit will have you wondering "would it sound that way if I was playing through an Yggy."  (yes, it would, but you will still wonder)

I don't want to attack specific TOTL products, because their followers are legion.  I'll simply say I stand by what I said about the bifrost 4490, but I also don't want to argue about it being compared to specific TOTL DACs, but a few years old DACs that people still love.  Too much passion there and it's not an argument I want to get into.  
 
But all that being said, if you want the absolute best sound in your budget, what I said earlier, about the GUMBy -> Mjolinir -> Balanced TOTL headphone is still true, IMHO.  That's going to absolutely blow the doors off any Yggy setup you went with.  Get there as fast as you can vs. doing piecemeal upgrades if you want to get to a world beating sound.