[chelrob]

Definitely subjective

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelrob /img/forum/go_quote.gif iRiver H120 is not the only game in town for line out. Are you confusing OPTICAL OUT with LINE OUT? Nor is it the best choice for line out. I found the H120's line out to be rather dull. IMHO The headphone out of the Rio Karma sounds much better than the H120 line out. The H120 Optical out is far superior to the line level out though.

thanks for the input, that's good info. much appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epaludo The Iriver H120 line out is one of the best around. Such as the Iriver H300 series the Iaudio X5, the Cowon A2 and the ipod with line out docks. This are the most popular ones that come to mind, but there are more.

Really? Well, you can leave out the X5 out of the "popular ones" coz its line out is pretty much useless. I know, I own one!

 

[silmaauki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epaludo /img/forum/go_quote.gif For me it's unacceptable to amplify the headphone out of the Rio. That's why i asked you. Amplifying the headphone out means that you're amplifying the signal twice, which can only add distortion

Do you know that line out is amplified signal (like headphone out)?

In most cases amplifying is doing something more that just adding distortion.

 

[wolfen68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenni /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really? Well, you can leave out the X5 out of the "popular ones" coz its line out is pretty much useless. I know, I own one!

I had an X5 and agree the lineout is useless. Even if it sounded as good as the headphone out (which it didn't), why bother with that flimsy subpack?

I had no problem amping the headphone out on the X5. It sounded very good as compared to the lineout on my H140....sometimes I even preferred it.

The only reason I ditched the X5 was to go optical with the iriver, which does sound better than any other combination I've heard to date.

 

[epaludo]

Here's Vinnie from RWA explaining a bit the differences ...

 

[silmaauki]

Epaludo,

I do totally agree with Winnie. Thanks for the link. However it did not answer my 'question'.

Winnies explanation does not support at all your claim (which I quoted in my previous post).

I don't know what is your knowledge of the amplification in audio, but I feel like you have missunderstood something (not that I am an expert here either).

 

[Ichinichi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelrob /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. The H120 optical out > microdac > microamp defeats all combinations mentoned above, especially with the SR225s. PC > USB > microdac > microamp defeats even the H120 optical, etc.

really?! why do you think this is? i thought a transport was a transport...so the h120 is as good as a pc when both are taken as digital transports...please explain?

 

[chelrob]

I didn't/hadn't compare(d) it to a PC as transport when I made that statement. You're quoting me out of context. But I do prefer the sound of my PC connected via USB to the microstack over the H120 optical out to the microstack. That's my personal preference and opinion, no explanation required, YMMV.

 

[epaludo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by silmaauki /img/forum/go_quote.gif Epaludo, I do totally agree with Winnie. Thanks for the link. However it did not answer my 'question'. Winnies explanation does not support at all your claim (which I quoted in my previous post). I don't know what is your knowledge of the amplification in audio, but I feel like you have missunderstood something (not that I am an expert here either).

If the line out signal is amplified or not is beyond my knowledge. What i'm saying is that the line out bypass the internal amp. So, when you connect the line out to an external amp the signal will be amplified just once (not by the DAP internal, just by the external amp). And when you connect a headphone out to an external amp, the signal is amplified twice (by the DAP's internal amp and by the erternal amp).
This is what i'm trying to say. Is it clear now?
Sorry if i didn't expressed myself correctly before ...

EDIT: The line out may really bypass the internal amp or just not use any amplification (zero gain), i'm not sure about this. But either way the gain is zero. That's why some consider it as bypass the internal amp (if it didn't really bypasses it) ...

 

[silmaauki]

Epaludo,

Quote:

If the line out signal is amplified or not is beyond my knowledge.

Line out signal IS amplified.
Quote:

What i'm saying is that the line out bypass the internal amp.

Wrong. Line out does not bypass the internal amp. I'm afraid I am not the best person to explain this. Maybe wikipedia could help here with explanation of preamplifier.

So whenever you have a lineout->headphone amp chain the signal is amplified twice. That is not bad, not at all.

Zero gain doesn't mean "no amplification". Unfortunately, I cannot explain this either since I dont' fully understand it. You see, it is difficult.

 

[epaludo]

Did you read my EDIT in post #24?
I say exactly what you are complaining about. The gain is zero. That's fact. It can be amplified, but with no gain. That's why some say it bypasses the internal amp, once with the gain zero can be considered that the amplifier (responsible for add gain) isn't producing any change in the signal ...

 

[epaludo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by silmaauki /img/forum/go_quote.gif So whenever you have a lineout->headphone amp chain the signal is amplified twice. That is not bad, not at all.

I know it's not bad to connect a line out to a headphone amp. The signal can be amplified twice, i'm not sure about it.

I'm refering to amplification to something that add gain to the signal. So, the line out not adding gain i'm saying that it's not amplified (NOT add gain) ...

EDIT:
According to this, An idealized amplifier can be said to be "a piece of wire with gain".
Amplify definition, to say that i'm refering to amplify and there's is a gain. The gain can be zero though ...

 

[silmaauki]

Epaludo,

I did read your edit in post 24#. However i did not quote it since i did already comment the same issue in my reply.

You are playing with words. And seems like you are not understanding the full meaning of those words. Zero gain does not mean "no amplification". Zero gain does not mean that it bypasses the amplification.

A "zero gain" amplification is like any other aplification circuitry. It can add distortion or change the signal in any unwanted manner. Zero gain does not mean that you have perfect (unchanged) signal, even though that is always the goal. Zero gain is a result of amplification.

Trust me, you don't understand what gain is. Neither do I.

And I did read your latest edit. Do you know what is idealized world? It can be found from fairy tales, but not anywhere on this globe. So in idealized world we would not need any amps. Just plug a piece of wire and that's it.

 

[epaludo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by silmaauki /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are playing with words. And seems like you are not understanding the full meaning of those words. Zero gain does not mean "no amplification". Zero gain does not mean that it bypasses the amplification.

I KNOW. I'm trying to say that the zero gain "acts" like a "bypass". We are both talking the same thing for a while. It's just the way we see it.

What does gain mean if i don't know what it is? (i've even linked a gain explanation in a glossary right above).

Quote:

And I did read your latest edit. Do you know what is idealized world? It can be found from fairy tales, but not anywhere on this globe. So in idealized world we would not need any amps. Just plug a piece of wire and that's it.

You've lost your mind ... ?

LOL. This was totally unexpected. Got me laughing though ...

I think we both know we are talking about the same thing, don't you? It's just a way to interpret the meaning of it ...

 

[chelrob]

That's not quite as insane as calling Vinnie Winnie, LOL