[sebaz]

I'm going crazy trying to find this with so many options and none being what I need. I just bought a Fiio K7 amp, and while it sounds pretty good (as long as the music has some custom EQ), it doesn't help me with what I need the most. HiRes audio, crazy 192 Khz sample rates are great, but I can't really tell the difference. To me the thing that matters the most is not bits and sample rates, it's a well recorded album and a good EQ curve. I'll take an iTunes Plus 256 kbps AAC of a well recorded album to a 24 bit, 192 Khz album poorly recorded. For example, I'll take Earth, Wind & Fire's "Raise!" in AAC 256 Kbps to Coldplay's "A Rush of Blood to the Head" in 24/192 Khz super lossless, because that album just sounds bad. Unless you bring down the mid highs a lot, then it stands a chance.

These days we still have some great receivers at a decent price that most people can afford, one of them being my Pioneer VSX-935, which has great sound once you spend several minutes doing a custom EQ for the 7 individual speakers, and setting the treble to +10. But all these new receivers treat the headphones output like a second class citizen, and there's no EQ for it, only bass and treble, which helps, but its output is rather poor.

So I'm trying to find a good quality amp, priced no more than $220, that has all these quality components like the Fiio K7, but also has a 1/4" plug input as well as the output. Meaning, I want to plug in an extension cable with two 1/4" male plugs, one to the receiver, the other one to the input in the amp, to have better sound than what I get with just the Pioneer receiver. But the amp would need to be made to withstand a variable signal coming from a headphones output, which wouldn't be extremely loud, because I would set the volume in the amp to a bit higher than what I need, and control the volume with the Pioneer's remote control.

And this is going to sound crazy, but if I could find one with at least a basic EQ, that would be even better, but I'd be happy with just bass and treble knobs.

As far as I've seen on Amazon, there are some with a 1/4" input, but they seem more like splitters, and they say amp, but maybe it's because they have 4 headphone outputs, so it's probably just a basic amplification to feed 4 headphones at a time. And they are all between 30 and 50 bucks, so I'm guessing they're not high quality audio.

Does anything like what I described exist?

 

[technobear]

I want to plug in an extension cable with two 1/4" male plugs, one to the receiver, the other one to the input in the amp, to have better sound than what I get with just the Pioneer receiver.

...or in other words, to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

This is not the way. You need to connect a headphone amp directly to the source. If you have multiple sources, connect to the tape-out on the receiver.

 

[sebaz]

...or in other words, to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Not so much. The barebones audio signal as it is, doesn't sound good at all. It sounds flat and boring. The signal coming out of the Pioneer's headphone output is a step over that, but not much more. Unfortunately they put all the emphasis on the speakers and leave the headphones in a distant second place. So you wouldn't be doing anything that is not normally done, improving the signal of a flat source.

This is not the way. You need to connect a headphone amp directly to the source. If you have multiple sources, connect to the tape-out on the receiver.

Well, it's the way I need. And the headphone amp would be connected to the source, this being the receiver. Just not the "tape-out" as you call it, which you mean line out. If I connect it to the line out I can only change the volume with the headphone amp, at least in this Pioneer. I have a Yamaha that has a variable output line out, but doesn't sound as good as the Pioneer.

Regardless, what I want seems to exist, as digging a little more took me to the entry level Fiios, like the A models, and even the more expensive Q1 Mark II, have an input that may be 3.5 mm but it's meant to go from the 3.5 mm output of a phone or a portable audio player to the input in the amp, so it's designed to take that kind of variable input without damaging, am I right? This may not have all the things I want, but it would improve the sound quality compared to the Pioneer's barebones headphone output, would it not?

 

[technobear]

Not so much. The barebones audio signal as it is, doesn't sound good at all. It sounds flat and boring. The signal coming out of the Pioneer's headphone output is a step over that, but not much more. Unfortunately they put all the emphasis on the speakers and leave the headphones in a distant second place. So you wouldn't be doing anything that is not normally done, improving the signal of a flat source.

Well, it's the way I need. And the headphone amp would be connected to the source, this being the receiver. Just not the "tape-out" as you call it, which you mean line out. If I connect it to the line out I can only change the volume with the headphone amp, at least in this Pioneer. I have a Yamaha that has a variable output line out, but doesn't sound as good as the Pioneer.

Regardless, what I want seems to exist, as digging a little more took me to the entry level Fiios, like the A models, and even the more expensive Q1 Mark II, have an input that may be 3.5 mm but it's meant to go from the 3.5 mm output of a phone or a portable audio player to the input in the amp, so it's designed to take that kind of variable input without damaging, am I right? This may not have all the things I want, but it would improve the sound quality compared to the Pioneer's barebones headphone output, would it not?

I don't think you've understood.

If the headphone output of the Pioneer is not good then there is absolutely no point in taking that and amplifying it. You will not get a better result.

 

[sebaz]

If the headphone output of the Pioneer is not good then there is absolutely no point in taking that and amplifying it. You will not get a better result.

Well, maybe I should've given more details, but I tend to write too much as it is. In all the audio gear I have, the best quality I get from the headphones output comes from a Sansui G-5700. This is due to the great sound Sansuis have overall, but also because the headphone output wasn't relegated to a lower category, but was just as important as the sound from the speakers. This is true for every Sansui I ever had, which must be about 5, of which I still have 3, the G-5700 being the best.

The headphones output in the G-5700 not only sounds great because of the Sansui sound signature, it's also well powered. The volume knob goes up to 10 and when I'm using headphones, I can barely go above 2, maybe 3 if it's one of those vinyl records that are pressed at very low volume. But a regular CD, 3 would be too loud for comfort, and 4 would probably blow up the diaphragms of the toughest cans. You can feel the headphones are getting real power.

In every receiver I had in the last few years, an older Pioneer, an Onkyo, a Yamaha, and the new Pioneer, one thing is evident, and that is that the speaker section gets all the effort, with custom EQ for each speaker and many other things, but the headphones don't get much love. Not only you don't get the same customizable EQ, but they feel underpowered. You know that when you have any amp that is rather low powered, like it puts out 15 Watts and you connect to it speakers that are rated at 100 Watts or more, if you start raising the volume, it sounds distorted, even if the speakers can take much more power than that?

Well, this is kind of like that. I have an Oppo 4k Blu-ray player that can output to HDMI and analog at the same time, so I have the HDMI output connected to the Pioneer and the analog stereo output to the Sansui. The difference when listening to the same song or anything else like a loud movie, with the same headphones, going back and forth between the Sansui and the Pioneer, is outstanding. The Pioneer, as good as it is as an amp for speakers, is really mediocre compared to the Sansui when it comes to the headphones. It sounds more harsh, and raising the volume only distorts sound, while the Sansui can be raised to above a comfort level without distortion.

Now, I'm not a sound engineer, these are just my observations. But it seems to me that amplifying that signal could improve the sound quality. If not, then why do people buy headphones amps at all? I mean, if you have an iPhone and you want to use the best headphones, you just order a $5 adapter cable from 3.5 mm to lightning port and that's it. If you want to use your computer, every PC and Mac has a 3.5 mm output. It seems to me that the reason headphone amps are made and people buy them is because amplifying the audio signal improves audio quality. Am I wrong?

 

[LoneFurrow]

The Pioneer VSX-935 is a 7.2 surround sound receiver, designed primarily for home cinema systems. I would expect the headphone output to be a complete afterthought, so your experience isn't really surprising. Older receivers such as the Sansui you mention were designed in the 70s, well before separate headphone amps, DACs, and streaming services were even considered. The design of receivers in that era was very different and more suited to driving headphones directly from the amp or receiver itself. My dad had a similar Sansui receiver and it certainly worked nicely with headphones of the time.

Speaking personally, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. Are you trying to create a dedicated headphone solution for music, have a quiet solution for home cinema and movie watching that can also drive speakers (hence the Pioneer), or something else? Where does the K7 sit in your signal chain? What sources / streaming services are you using? If you want to be able to apply EQ to digital inputs, I'd look for an amp that provides that level of customisation rather than the K7.

If you're using digital files as input, you need a DAC prior to the amp section, as I'm sure you know. The DACs built into phones and computers are generally sub-standard compared to even relatively inexpensive ones you can buy that sit externally. There's little benefit further amplifying the signal from a headphone output (3.5mm or 1/4 inch), far more benefit amplifying the raw signal via a DAC and amp or integrated DAC / amp solution.

Sorry if this is all blindingly obvious.

 

[sebaz]

Speaking personally, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. Are you trying to create a dedicated headphone solution for music, have a quiet solution for home cinema and movie watching that can also drive speakers (hence the Pioneer), or something else?

For the most part, an amp that allows me to connect to my iPhone and Mac for music, but also has an analog input (3.5 mm is fine if that's all there is), to connect from the headphone output of the Pioneer receiver to it, and plug in my headphones to this amp. If the amp itself has some kind of EQ control, that would be even better. My main goal is something that will improve at least a bit the sound of the Pioneer.

Where does the K7 sit in your signal chain?

Now it's sitting in its box to be sent back to uncle Jeff. Too bulky, and that light around the knob looks cool in the daytime, but it's really annoying at night. Sounds great though, you can tell the headphones are getting a really nice amped signal, but it's a pity that doesn't have any EQ, so if the source can't be EQ'd, you're screwed.

He's sending me a Fiio Q3 MQA to test on Tuesday, but as far as I've seen, that one has an analog input that also seems to serve as a 3.5 mm headphone output, which is mindblowing, but the problem is that the two outputs are balanced, and I don't think I'm going to keep the Audio Technica balanced headphones I just got, because they sound fantastic but lack bass a lot. As far as I can tell, you can't simply get an adapter to use a 3.5 mm plug headphone with a 4.4 mm balanced input, is that right?

The FiiO Q1 Mark II would look like a good fit, but apparently it's discontinued and so are a lot of other Fiio amps that have an analog 3.5 mm input meant to receive a variable signal from a headphone output. So maybe I'll just cancel the Q3 and try to find something from another brand. Nobody's rushing me.

 

[LoneFurrow]

Thanks for elaborating, sebaz, that helps a lot.

I'd recommend you look at something like the xDuoo XD-05 Plus, xDuoo XD-05 BAL, or iFi xDSD Gryphon. All three are portable DAC amps that have both USB-C and single-ended 3.5mm inputs. I appreciate they're more expensive but I was trying to find a solution that meets all your requirements.

I'd connect your Mac or iPhone via USB-C input so you can benefit from the DAC in one of the XD-05 models or Gryphon - the DAC chips are far, far better than in your Mac or iPhone. If you want to use the Pioneer receiver, I'd recommend you use the Line Out from the receiver into the single-ended input of the XD-05 or Gryphon. You would need a 2 x RCA to 3.5mm cable, such as this - https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-evergreen-35mm-to-2-rca-audio-cable - to connect. This would again give you a pure signal into the DAC, rather than one that's already been processed by the Pioneer receiver (via the headphone output). I don't think Fiio offers anything that covers your connectivity options in quite the same way. Personally, I would try to stretch to the Gryphon but I realise that's way over your suggested budget.

Which Audio Technica headphones are you using? You could try changing the headphone pads as different pads can change the presentation characteristics quite dramatically. Dekoni is one brand that offers a wide range of replacement pads and their website includes graphs to indicate the potential change using different pads. There's more info here - https://dekoniaudio.com/product-category/brands/audio-technica/

 

[sebaz]

I'd recommend you look at something like the xDuoo XD-05 Plus

Thanks, LoneFurrow. That one is not too far up in terms of cost, but still a bit steep for what I need. The reality is that I don't absolutely need my phone to listen to Hi-res lossless audio, I can use my Mac for that, and it's connected to a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 that I use to capture my vinyl records, but it's also a great DAC going up to 24 bit 192 Khz. And switching back and forth between the two and the same song, over and over, I can't really tell the difference.

If you want to use the Pioneer receiver, I'd recommend you use the Line Out from the receiver into the single-ended input of the XD-05 or Gryphon. You would need a 2 x RCA to 3.5mm cable, such as this - https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-evergreen-35mm-to-2-rca-audio-cable - to connect. This would again give you a pure signal into the DAC, rather than one that's already been processed by the Pioneer receiver (via the headphone output).

The reason to use the headphones output of the Pioneer is that it would still allow me to use the remote control for volume, but also that at least it has some control over sound in the bass and treble. The line out feeds a flat, untouched signal, and hardly any headphones are going to sound good with that. To me having at least some EQ is better than nothing. The only "headphones" that to me sound good without any EQ'ing are my Soundcore Liberty 4 bluetooth earbuds, because their native curve is rather U shaped like I like. If I can't have any EQ, I'll take those bluetooth earbuds to any over the ear headphones, no matter how good they are.

Of course the Pioneer "solution" would be only for movies. I can use the Sansui headphones output if I send the only line out from the Pioneer to it, but then I'd have to get up to change the volume every time there's a loud scene. Movie sound editors like to set the dialog really low and action scenes really loud, so you set it to a point where you can understand the dialog, and then the loud scenes get deafening. These people think that everybody lives in a house by themselves with nobody around for a mile or two, and that the human ear can take any sudden change in volume without consequences.

Which Audio Technica headphones are you using? You could try changing the headphone pads as different pads can change the presentation characteristics quite dramatically. Dekoni is one brand that offers a wide range of replacement pads and their website includes graphs to indicate the potential change using different pads. There's more info here - https://dekoniaudio.com/product-category/brands/audio-technica/

Thanks for the info, I'll take a look at those.