[hakunamakaka]

In my experience DAC made a huge difference to utopia. When I swapped from topping to chord qutest the biggest difference was in staging which improved drastically, as well as density of notes, especially on higher frequencies. I was very reserved regards sq improvement over dacs when I was playing with lower tier equipment, but once you go higher up the ladder the impact gets big, especially if you have resolving equipment. I would dare to say they can change the sound even more than amplifier

 

[FullBright1]

Thanks for a note, I've actually found a shop that might have ADX5000 to audition which would be the best route. They got me intrigued because of high impedance, but some of the comparisons especially against focal clear put me on hold. Lesser quality bass and more powerful highs can be a dealbreakers for me. While clears were exceptional comparing to what I had before I occasionally used to get mild headaches with them.
LCD3 is in my books as well, but weight and the need of power-full SS source...Or D8000 but it's so damn pricey...In that regards Utopia would be just plug&play for me

The ADX5000 do not have "lesser" bass Q then the Focal C.
IN fact the entire resolution quality of the ADX5000 is much superior to the Focal Clear.
Its not even a comparison.
The FC is good mid tier.
The ADX is end game, but, its specific to a certain type of listener. You need to enjoy neutrality, and extreme detail retrieval.

 

[FYFL]

The ADX5000 do not have "lesser" bass Q then the Focal C.
IN fact the entire resolution quality of the ADX5000 is much superior to the Focal Clear.
Its not even a comparison.
The FC is good mid tier.
The ADX is end game, but, its specific to a certain type of listener. You need to enjoy neutrality, and extreme detail retrieval.

I would agree with your breakdown.

 

[FullBright1]

I would agree with your breakdown.

With all the endless chatter about Focal, Audeze, ZMF, Hifiman, and Sennheiser, the AT's are a hidden gemphone.
Its good to have options.
Options = freedom.
freedom is good.

 

[drewbinaj]

Hifiman Arya's are great, or used Utopias/Susvara's.

 

[FYFL]

In my experience DAC made a huge difference to utopia. When I swapped from topping to chord qutest the biggest difference was in staging which improved drastically, as well as density of notes, especially on higher frequencies. I was very reserved regards sq improvement over dacs when I was playing with lower tier equipment, but once you go higher up the ladder the impact gets big, especially if you have resolving equipment. I would dare to say they can change the sound even more than amplifier

I think you can get pretty decent ( =extremely capable) DAC around 1K price range. More $ will get you some refinement, better build and in some cases, upgradability. But, return on investment gets slimmer as you go substantially higher in price range. Is it worth it? it is a very personal decision to make. With flagship headphones/amps and sizable budget..., I would say that, it is certainly worth investigating. As always, it comes to what you can afford and how much improvement you can realistically gain from it? If you can afford it and you feel that it works for your particular system??? Sure, go for it.

As a side note. I am not against expensive toys by any means, (my current dac retails for 7K) but it has to add desirable functions, peace of mind and at very least, it better sound good enough to minimize buyer’s remorse syndrome. Lol

 

[hakunamakaka]

I think you can get pretty decent ( =extremely capable) DAC around 1K price range. More $ will get you some refinement, better build and in some cases, upgradability. But, return on investment gets slimmer as you go substantially higher in price range. Is it worth it? it is a very personal decision to make. With flagship headphones/amps and sizable budget..., I would say that, it is certainly worth investigating. As always, it comes to what you can afford and how much improvement you can realistically gain from it? If you can afford it and you feel that it works for your particular system??? Sure, go for it.

As a side note. I am not against expensive toys by any means, (my current dac retails for 7K) but it has to add desirable functions, peace of mind and at very least, it better sound good enough to minimize buyer’s remorse syndrome. Lol

Past the certain limit it goes the same for all audio gear, TOTL headphones do not bring 5x-10x better performance against good budget headphones, neither do amps.
Good dacs aim for the qualities that I'm particular interested which can improve the quality of the soundstage and give better holographic experience. When I was young I always wondered how my godfarthers home speaker setup sounded so good, all instruments had their place, I could even easily sense which guitarist sits closer or further from the mic but didn't know what these boxes between speakers did. Now at home same track sounded flat and all instruments blended together not in organised way, the only thing which I was able to hear properly separated was bass. I'm not sure what sort of trickery goes in detail on dacs, but I felt much of the improvement on utopias and it got me interested how better it can get. Especially for speaker setup...though some of these offerings are crazy expensive as chord+upscaler....

 

[FYFL]

Past the certain limit it goes the same for all audio gear, TOTL headphones do not bring 5x-10x better performance against good budget headphones, neither do amps.
Good dacs aim for the qualities that I'm particular interested which can improve the quality of the soundstage and give better holographic experience. When I was young I always wondered how my godfarthers home speaker setup sounded so good, all instruments had their place, I could even easily sense which guitarist sits closer or further from the mic but didn't know what these boxes between speakers did. Now at home same track sounded flat and all instruments blended together not in organised way, the only thing which I was able to hear properly separated was bass. I'm not sure what sort of trickery goes in detail on dacs, but I felt much of the improvement on utopias and it got me interested how better it can get. Especially for speaker setup...though some of these offerings are crazy expensive as chord+upscaler....

You're right.
My definition of audio excellence is very simple. It has to be effortlessly transparent, dynamic and engaging. To my personal taste and standards of cause. Unfortunately, I'm having a really hard time reaching those goals with my headphones setup. And I don't believe that my rig is particularly locking so maybe, I am aiming for impossible. Perhaps it is the scale, more believable soundstage and room reverb qualities that add to my speaker setup realism???? Still trying to understand it and make the most out of it.
My comment regarding DACs is strictly based on typical headphone setup. Since my own DAC performs double duty, feeding both, headphone and speaker setups, I don't feel all that guilty about its outlandish cost. Surely it's not the most refined or sophisticated piece of hardware out other, but for me and my needs, it is more than enough to enjoy digital side of audio reproduction. And I guess, that was my point. For many, DAC around +-1K range would be more than enough to get really close to that last 5 percent of extremely expensive, boutique type products. Also, from my own experience. Those boutique brands add their own spin on sound signature and presentation qualities. It is kind of a necessity as there is a need to differentiate their own stable from its competitors. But I do agree that more money will get you improvements in areas such as soundstage, image, lower noise floor and transparency. With system revealing enough, those nuances are quite apparent. And if budget permits, well worth it.

 

[FYFL]

Looks like a “Mini Meet” will take place this Saturday. It will be quite exciting and refreshing to get back to normal life and meet fine people with passion for toys and music.
Pics and impressions can be posted here.
Should be fun!!!

 

[hakunamakaka]

You're right.
My definition of audio excellence is very simple. It has to be effortlessly transparent, dynamic and engaging. To my personal taste and standards of cause. Unfortunately, I'm having a really hard time reaching those goals with my headphones setup. And I don't believe that my rig is particularly locking so maybe, I am aiming for impossible. Perhaps it is the scale, more believable soundstage and room reverb qualities that add to my speaker setup realism???? Still trying to understand it and make the most out of it.
My comment regarding DACs is strictly based on typical headphone setup. Since my own DAC performs double duty, feeding both, headphone and speaker setups, I don't feel all that guilty about its outlandish cost. Surely it's not the most refined or sophisticated piece of hardware out other, but for me and my needs, it is more than enough to enjoy digital side of audio reproduction. And I guess, that was my point. For many, DAC around +-1K range would be more than enough to get really close to that last 5 percent of extremely expensive, boutique type products. Also, from my own experience. Those boutique brands add their own spin on sound signature and presentation qualities. It is kind of a necessity as there is a need to differentiate their own stable from its competitors. But I do agree that more money will get you improvements in areas such as soundstage, image, lower noise floor and transparency. With system revealing enough, those nuances are quite apparent. And if budget permits, well worth it.

To some degree we are chasing wild goose when we want to emulate speaker experience with headphones. Headphones will always have some sort of gap between your ears compared to speakers, but with headphones we can experience better sound quality for way less money. Regards dac price there are many delta sigma dac's which are overpriced and bring nothing extraordinary to the table apart from multi-functionality. I have yet to hear well implemented ess sabre dac, even better ones while sounding clean/transparent & detailed they had too much of the digital sound. Vinyl fans should avoid such as without even a thought of purchase unless they can live with digitus in their ears. If you into live music/jazz, have you tried a decent R2R dac ?

For a price range of 1k you really have options if you look into used market. By the way which dac do you feed to ADX5000 and what is your music source ?

 

[FYFL]

To some degree we are chasing wild goose when we want to emulate speaker experience with headphones. Headphones will always have some sort of gap between your ears compared to speakers, but with headphones we can experience better sound quality for way less money. Regards dac price there are many delta sigma dac's which are overpriced and bring nothing extraordinary to the table apart from multi-functionality. I have yet to hear well implemented ess sabre dac, even better ones while sounding clean/transparent & detailed they had too much of the digital sound. Vinyl fans should avoid such as without even a thought of purchase unless they can live with digitus in their ears. If you into live music/jazz, have you tried a decent R2R dac ?

For a price range of 1k you really have options if you look into used market. By the way which dac do you feed to ADX5000 and what is your music source ?

Ofcause. Speaker experience can’t be replicated (crossfeed applied or not) with headphones. Same goes for live performance.
Very good speaker system can “fool” you to a certain degree. But it will cost you a kidney (ongoing rate is about $250,000). Literally. Decent setup will make music experience believable and enjoyable. That’s how I would described my own rig’s abilities.
And it’s probably 1/10th cost of above mentioned SOTA rig.

Headphones do certain things better than speakers. Imaging, separation, lower noise floor/distortion are just few of things that make headphones a very useful tool. Quite enjoyable as well.

DAC I’m using is PS Audio DirectStream DAC with build-in streaming module (Roon/tidal etc ready). I like it for its simplistic approach. No need for PC or separate streamer. I also like interface, features and upgradability options. Speaking of upgradability. Just ordered PS Audio new, upgraded operating system called “Sunlight” that comes via SD card but it can also be downloaded for free as an option. The Sunlight operating system upgrade suppose to provide further reductions of jitter sensitivity and lowers audible noise. Basically, it changes this DAC signature slightly. Operating system can be rolled back to any previous version if user prefers earlier version for whatever reason.

As to R2R DACs. I have very limited experience with that approach. Mostly as a listener in personally assembled/tuned setup in speaker only system. From I have heard, I like it. And it would be the way I would go with as far as DAC topology is concerned. It wasn’t a cheap DAC (4 or 5K) but it was extremely well build and sounded great. I think it was Denafrips Terminator or something like that. I’m not 100 percent sure.
From vinyl enthusiast perspective. R2R and PS Audio approach is a great alternative.
I haven’t heard any or Chord or Wadia stuff so perhaps, I am missing out on some other great DAC designs??

 

[hakunamakaka]

Chord uses their own off the shelf DAC chip, same thing is done with PS Audio DirectStream. It is still delta sigma dac, but with different flavors. One of the reasons why Chord/PS audio is so highly priced is because they program their dac chips from scratch. To create a good R2R dac today is far more expensive than going delta sigma route. DAC's like denafrips Terminator are very highly priced for what they do. I believe the golden era for R2R dac's was around 80's.

Today market is flooded with cheap R2R circuit designs as they have no other options if they want to be competitive with delta sigma dacs. Multibit NOS DAC's are as well an option to go. They are cheaper as they dont use real R2R resistor ladder.I know schiit goes that route and You should be able to audition them easily in USA, though I haven't heard them( You would need to aim for Yggdrasil/Schiit multibit).

I'm mainly listening to electronic music so for now Chord Qutest does the job, but when I brought my qutest to compare against Vintage SFD-1mk2 with acoustic/jazz music there was simply no contest. Timbre, soundstage presentation was way more lifelike instead than a bit holographic but forward presentation of Chord Qutest.

Personally I'm thinking about Metrum Pavane, but it is very highly priced for my budget so I'm still in saving process and will see what future unfolds

 

[FYFL]

Field Programable Gate Array is what PS Audio is using. In a nutshell, you could call it a “chip” . It allows user to customize it, optimize it and program to get optimum results.
Similar but not the same. Just like op-amp that is chip based and alternative discrete FET design. Which functions similarly but it’s not based on closed circuit design set by manufacturer and offered at low cost.
I like that out of the box approach personally.
R2R DACS are nothing new obviously. As you pointed out. It has been around for decades. It just seemed to get perfected lately and offered at much lower, costumer friendly price.
I am also a fan of those applications. It just comes down to execution and cost.
I do realize that quality R2R dac in 1K price range that sounds “good” is a challenge to manufacturers. And I’ll have a chance (I hope) to hear one over the weekend at the mini-meet. So I will chime in my impressions about low cost R2R in near future.

Picking up a right DAC is a challenge. And I feel your frustration as technology is moving rather quickly as far as digital audio is concerned. That’s why I suggested caution towards expensive DACS, unless they offer some sort of path for upgradability.

 

[hakunamakaka]

Field Programable Gate Array is what PS Audio is using. In a nutshell, you could call it a “chip” . It allows user to customize it, optimize it and program to get optimum results.
Similar but not the same. Just like op-amp that is chip based and alternative discrete FET design. Which functions similarly but it’s not based on closed circuit design set by manufacturer and offered at low cost.
I like that out of the box approach personally.
R2R DACS are nothing new obviously. As you pointed out. It has been around for decades. It just seemed to get perfected lately and offered at much lower, costumer friendly price.
I am also a fan of those applications. It just comes down to execution and cost.
I do realize that quality R2R dac in 1K price range that sounds “good” is a challenge to manufacturers. And I’ll have a chance (I hope) to hear one over the weekend at the mini-meet. So I will chime in my impressions about low cost R2R in near future.

Picking up a right DAC is a challenge. And I feel your frustration as technology is moving rather quickly as far as digital audio is concerned. That’s why I suggested caution towards expensive DACS, unless they offer some sort of path for upgradability.

The best way is to pause and stop listening to the gear as much, because it can end in a vicious cycle for a need of an upgrade. Share with us your thoughts after the "mini meet"

 

[FYFL]

The best way is to pause and stop listening to the gear as much, because it can end in a vicious cycle for a need of an upgrade. Share with us your thoughts after the "mini meet"

Oh yeah. Chasing the dragon is what a lot of audiophiles are caught up with. But it doesn’t have to be that exhausting. Besides, when you get consumed in watts and zeros, enjoyment of music begins to deteriorate. So it’s important to pace yourself, get informed and make most sensible decisions that will give you most enjoyable music experience. It doesn’t have to be the “best”, latest...... it just have to be good enough for you.
Will keep you all posted regarding mini-meet experience as there are going to be few headphones, amps and DACs that I am excited to hear for the very first time.