[earmonger]

I still wish you could try some ATH-R70X. If the audio stores don't have them, a musicians' supply might since they are studio-oriented headphones. And you could send me the extra $1K.

Comfort does matter. If the HD800s are going to make you want to wear them and the Arya are going to feel like a burden, that is definitely a pro for the HD800s.

There's no prohibition against EQ. Your ears know what you want better than some headphone manufacturer trying to guesstimate what a "typical" listener will experience. I know I'm oversimplifying, but there is a tension between bass and detail/soundstage. Less bass, more room for upper-register detail. You're welcome to use EQ to set your own balance of registers.

 

[PinkyPowers]

Hello again everyone, welcome back.

I decided to make this a separate follow-up thread, as my previous thread got a ton of replies and community discussion. Thank you to the community, it was a fun thread, and your thoughts were very useful. I apologize if making this a separate thread is against Head-Fi customs.

So, story time. I headed down to my city's premier audio store, Bay-Bloor Radio, for a final round of testing. I brought my Sennheiser 6XX's with me, and compared them to the HD 800s, and a headphone that was recommended to me by one of the employees working there, after we discussed what I was looking for in my auditory experience: The Meze 109 Pro.

To make sure I wasn't bottlenecking myself with file quality, bitrate, DAC output, or amplification power, I used the store's EverSolo DMP-A6 DAC Streamer (Roughly $1000), and the Sennheiser HDV 820 Amp (Roughly $3000) to power the headphones, streaming .flac files from Tidal.

My initial thoughts were as follows:​

• I was glad to hear that my previous testing at the other store was NOT amp-limited, as the differences between the headphones were consistent at both stores.
• The HD800s and Meze were clearer than my HD6XX. I still lack the ability to perfectly articulate the sensation, but it was as if there was a thin wall, or a sheet, or a veil eyes between me and the singer when listening to the HD6XXs, and this veil was lifted when listening to the HD800s and Meze, so I could hear the singer with all the clarity present in their voice. Bass and Treble, however, weren't cleared up by as much as the midtones/vocal frequencies, but that might just be my perception, since it's easier to tell when a word is pronounced clearly, than an arbitrary sound in an instrumental. Overall, though, the 6XX's sound more "compressed" or "condensed" or "muffled" than the HD800s and Meze.
• The Meze had a more U-shaped signature, with much more bass and subbase than the HD800s, and a touch more treble, though this was only noticed on songs that actually HAD deep base or high treble. The flip side of this, of course, is that it made the midtones/vocal frequencies fall back, relatively, which made singers sound quieter and farther away. This made clean, clearly-recorded vocal tracks worse-sounding to my ears, but made hip-hop, and other punchy, base-focused music much more impactful and entertaining to listen to.
• The HD800s did in fact feel very very open, but what defines openness is apparently different than what I had come to expect from reading reviews. It wasn't a wider soundstage than the Meze, and, to my ears, it wasn't really much wider than my HD6XX's, either. Instruments sounded just as close to my ears, or just as far within my head on all of the headphones. However, the HD800s felt like the sound exerted less pressure on my ears. It felt less stuffed, less compressed. It felt more breathable, more airy, and so I took this to update my understanding of what people mean when they say "open". This certainly wasn't what I was looking for, but it was a pleasant sensation, to have less pressure exerted on the ears. It made listening more comfortable, and less tiring. Maybe this is just me, though, as I do have mild tinnitus.

I then did some further testing:​

• I tried EQ-ing some bass into the HD800s to see if I could get the same fun punchiness of the Meze. However, since I had never used the EverSolo before, and was unfamiliar with it's interface, I couldn't tell if the EQ just wasn't working, or if I just suck at EQ-ing, as I admittedly have no experience with EQ. However, I boosted all frequencies from 31 to 250 by more than 10 dB, and boosted 4000 to 16000 by the same amounts, creating a strong U-shaped profile in both Parametric and Graphic EQ modes, but couldn't hear much of any difference, even in songs which clearly were playing sounds in those frequency ranges. No matter what, I couldn't add much of any bass to the HD800s.
• I also tried playing all of these headphones through a tube amp, the Cayin HA-1A Mk II amp (roughly $1000). I couldn't tell a difference between it and the Sennheiser amp, but I also wasn't able to directly A/B test the two amps, so.
• I tried listening to some of the tracks recommended in this reddit post, and could not, for the life of me, identify any of the things the post's writer talks about. I'm listening to the 9th symphony, and the writer talks about evaluating how far out of my head the sound seems to come from, up to a maximum of .4 head widths, meanwhile, every single headphone sounds the same, with the instruments being located squarely WITHIN my head. Hell, they're not even REACHING the tips of my ears, let alone .4 head widths OUTSIDE of them.
  • And I mean, really, we're talking about the HD800s, on a sennheiser-brand amp, receiving $3000 worth of amplification, playing .flac files from a $1000 DAC unit, playing CLASSICAL SYMPHONIC MUSIC. If there were EVER A TIME you'd expect the HD800s to shine, THIS IS IT. This is the HD800s' supposed wheelhouse, and yet, not a single instrument felt like it was external to my head. It all sat well within. Separation maxed out at maybe an inch or two of separation. Granted, there was some imaging, I could hear instruments coming from different directions, but absolutely no staging width, no depth, no resolution differences between headphones, etc.
  • When I posted this whole post to Reddit, yesterday, many people seem to think that it's a toss-up as to whether a human is able to hear soundstage width or not. Many people say they agree, many others say they can easily feel the instruments coming from outside their head. Seems to have more to do with genetics and ear anatomy than headphones.
• The HD800s were comfortable in the sense of the earcups being massive and open, and distributing their load across a huge pad, but the Meze were comfortable in the sense of having very plush earpads. The HD800's felt like rocks by comparison. TBH, I'm surprised the HD800s earpads are only like 1/4" thick. It seems a little nonsensical to me. I asked the store about it too and they said the pads were fairly new, that's just what they're like. The headstrap of the Meze was far more comfortable than the HD800s, though.
• I made sure to listen a bunch of different tracks, from many different groups and genres. Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, Glass Animals, etc., and many individual songs of different types. A-OK, Achilles Come Down, Cane Suga, Lavender Haze, Claire De Lune, Moonlight Sonata, Feel Good Inc., She Knows, HOME - Resonance, Home by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes, Goliath by Woodkid, Take me Home Country Roads, etc. Many songs were well-produced, with instrument separation and a wide sound stage, and many were "normally" produced, with no separation. In only THREE SONGS out of 30+, though, did it feel like an instrument was coming from just outside my ear - A song from Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Most importantly, though, the sound stage width was the same in all of the headphones, from my low 6XX's, to the HD800s. Yes, the HD800s were more "open", but all instruments were located in exactly the same place as my 6XX's, and just as far within/outside my head.
• I made this little graphic to illustrate what I felt, on all the headphones I've tested so far. On well-produced music, like Fleetwood Mac, I can hear the drums, the lead guitar, the bass guitar, and the singers, all coming from different locations, but these locations are maybe an inch apart in space, and are still located firmly within the confines of my head. On poorly-produced stuff, it was all dead-center in my head, No matter which headphone.
• 

Closing Thoughts and Rankings:​

• I have now tested several headphones, and from what I can tell, the Hifiman Arya Organics, Sennheiser HD800s, Meze 109 Pro, and Denon AH-D5200 are all clearer than my HD6XX's, making the 6XX's sound condensed, or muffled, or veiled by comparison. The Hifiman Edition XS I tried did NOT soundany clearer or less veiled.
  • With some headphones like the Arya Organics and Meze 109 Pro, which had better bass representation, I could actually hear how the bass was clearer, too. Less muddied, and it was also much stronger, giving me that "standing-in-front-of-a-subwoofer" kind of rumbling of my body, but only in two songs that actually HAD that kind of sub-base, and only when the volume was cranked way up, above where I'd actually listen.
• The HD 800s' and Arya Organics felt equally open, assuming we take "open" to mean "very little feeling of pressure on the ear and the eardrum", and NOT to mean "instruments sound far apart".
  • The Arya Organics had better bass, but, to my ears, nearly identical uppers/treble as the HD800s. The only difference was in the midtones, where singer's voices seemed to be a bit more forward/louder in the HD800s than the Arya Organics. Both were equally clear, though, and there were no differences in resolution, staging, detail, imaging, etc. The Organics are just the HD800s with bass.
• The HD 800s' and the Meze 109 Pro are a similar story, in that the Meze 109 Pro had much better bass and sub-base. However, it also had more treble, which the Arya Organic didn't. This made music sound not just bassier, but warmer. However, this meant that the midtones / vocal frequencies sounded even FARTHER back relative to the HD800s than the Arya Organics were.
  • To phrase it more simply:
    • Strong Base | Meze 109 & Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Weak Base
    • Weak, Receeded Mids | Meze 109 | Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Strong, Forward Mids
    • Normal Treble | Senn HD800s & Arya Organics | Meze 109 | Strong Treble
• The other headphones I tested (Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Audeze LCD-X) either did not sound any clearer than my HD 6XX's, or, in the case of the Audeze, had way too U-shaped of a profile to be useable for music with singing.
• The new Sennheiser HD 660 s sound clearer than the 6XX, but only in the midtones and uppers. The bass is just as weak and just as muddied.
• The Arya Organics were the most comfortable on my head. Very light, very plush, and very big, meaning the clamping pressure is distributed across a large area. The Meze 109 and Senn HD800s were both equally comfortable, but in different ways. The HD800s feel very hard, because their pads are paper-thin, but because the cups are SO big, the load dispersion is huge. The meze, on the other hand, were the smallest cups of them all, but the very plush cushions felt comfortable, and the head strap is absolutely superb.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics are much better looking than the HD800s, to me.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics have MUCH better build quality than the HD800s, when talking about the actual body of the headphone itself. The headband, ear cups, etc. The Senn HD800s feel like cheap plasticky garbage compared to the metal + wood bodies of the Meze and Arya. I have no idea how their actual drivers measure up against the Senn's in terms of reliability, but we all know the Senn is bulletproof.

Most Importantly of All:​

Absolutely NONE of these hi-fi headphones, or the $4000 of equipment they ran on, have transformed my auditory experience the way I was hoping. I was hoping for a transformation similar to the one I experienced when first stepping up from $50 childhood headphones to my HD6XX's, but scaled down slightly because of diminishing returns. I was hoping to hear new instruments and sounds I never knew were in a song, to head true soundstage separation and to have instruments feel like they're outside my head.

What I got instead was AT. MOST. A 10% improvement. At most. And only if I focus on it. And only on songs that are well-produced enough for it to even matter. Things are a BIT clearer. The bass is stronger in some of the headphones. Instrumentals are a bit snappier. That's really it. Music still sounds the same, such a tiny bit cleaner, and clearer. The openness of the HD800s feels nice on the ears, though, in terms of reduced intracranial pressure.

Where I'm at now, and how you can help:​

I am completely friggen lost, that's where I am.

Speaking frankly, I am a very broke individual. I have been trying to save money for this headphone purchase for the past Six Years. This has always meant that the HD800s sat squarely in the realm of "absolutely impossible" to purchase. I simply would never own a pair of HD800s. I came to terms with that.

Then I found out that they're on sale for $1599, a price that has never been seen before by any of the staff working at Bay Bloor Radio, in the 10+ years they've been working there. And the sale is ending in TWO DAYS.

I can theoretically afford $1599. It's a stretch, but it's worth it, IF IT'S WORTH IT.

What I REALLY can't afford is to buy a half-measure now, only to buy a more expensive headphone later, anyway. I want my personal summit product, because I expect to keep it for the next 10+ years at a minimum. I am NOT a gearhead. I will NOT be buying another pair of headphones after this, for at least 10 years.

That said, money is still money, and diminishing returns are real, so the way I look at my options is like this:

1. Arya Organics. They sound just as clear and resolving and open as the HD800s, but have better bass, which is the only thing the HD800s lack. This makes them, in a sense, the HD800s, but perfected. They're also supremely comfortable on my head, and I absolutely LOVE the way they look. They are also fairly priced, at $1299. The major concern, though, is with their reliability. I spoke to a Hifiman employee and he told me that they recently upgraded all of their manufacturing equipment at their factory in Guangzhou, and that the Arya Organics were the first headphones off this modernized and improved machinery, and that, in Hifiman's own opinion, the drivers are much better-built and more reliable than Hifiman's previous products, even when compared to their higher-tiered headphones like the HE1000se.
2. The Meze 109 Pro. This was a surprise find for me, as I had never heard of them before I went into the store. They are the most "fun" of the three headphones, as they got great bass, AND warm treble. Makes hip-hop and pop and rock real fun to listen to. However, voices and midtones sound very far back compared to the HD800s. They are less open than the Organics or the HD800s, but are still more open than the 6XX. They are just as clear as the Organics and the HD800s. They are not as comfortable as the Organics, but are much more plush than the HD800s. The headstrap is superb, and they look Gorgeous too. The walnut cups really pleases the woodworker in me. They are also the cheapest, at $1099. Reliability is unknown.
3. The HD800s. Very open, very low-pressure on the eardrums. Great clarity and detail, but I can't say they're any more detailed than the other two. The thing is, because they ARE more neutral, and don't have as much of the U-shape to their presentation, voices sound much more forward and louder, and this loudness makes them easier to hear, which is easily confused for greater clarity. I don't doubt that these are the best for classical music, but for most other genres, the utter lack of bass makes music feel sterile and hollow by comparison. I keep finding myself drawn to the warmth and bass of the other two by comparison, but only when listening to the genres of music that need it. The fit and finish is atrocious. The HD800s look like the same class of product as my HD6XX's. All plastic, no fine details other than the silver mesh around the earcups, etc. Looks like a $300 headphone, visually, but the reliability of the drivers themselves are well-established as being absolutely bulletproof.

So... what would you guys choose?​

• Reliable, Clear, Open, and Precise, but ugly and bass-weak HD800s for $1599
• Beautiful, Comfortable, Clear, Open, and Bassy but possibly unreliable Arya Organics for $1299
• Beautiful, Clear, Bassy, and Warm-trebled, but vocally-recessed Meze 109 Pro's for $1099
• The Unknown: Hifiman HE1000 Stealth for $1399

Yeah, that's right, I threw a new headphone in right at the end. The Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. Per Hifiman's sales reps and also a store owner, the HE1000 is more directly comparable to the HD800s than the Arya Organics are, as they have a more neutral sound signature like the HD800s, and are "smoother" in the treble than the Organics. However, they were produced on Hifiman's original equipment, and so they are likely not as reliable as the newer Arya Organics, which were made on the new equipment. I have not, and will not be able to test the HE1000's anywhere.

Anyways, I'm fried, and overwhelmed. Thoughts are welcome.

Thank you for reading!

If you like the HD800s, I'd recommend the HifiMAN HE1000 V2 Stealth. It won't transform your world, as you've learned already, but it's a more natural sounding headphone, while giving you all the resolution and detail of the HD800s.