[greenhorn]

The question is obviously for those who consider powercords make a difference.

So which one would make a more significative improvement?

A short powercord because is makes the path shorter?

OR

A long powercord because the longer the good quality wire, the shielding etc., the better?

 

[markl]

I would think in general shorter is better, although Virtual Dynamics in particular recommends slightly longer for their products to allow their technologies to have a greater effect. I was actually just talking to them about this. When they demo their top-of-the line stuff at audio shows, they told me they typically use 10-12ft PC's, 2-3m IC's, and 12-14ft Speaker cables. But their cables are so unusual I wouldn't at all take that as normal, especially for ICs and speaker cables where shorter is almost always better.

OTOH, the place where you have your rig now won't always be where it sits, so I would suggest getting one slightly longer than you currently need, so in case you move, and your rig ends up a little farther away from the outlet, you've got some slack to pick up the extra.

 

[883dave]

A good rule of thumb is to not have a power cord shorter than 4 feet, do to re-sale value (most people want at least that length).

It is better to have a cord that fits your application rather that one that is too long, as you will have to make room for the extra cord, and looping can induce signal

 

[Akathriel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl I would think in general shorter is better, although Virtual Dynamics in particular recommends slightly longer for their products to allow their technologies to have a greater effect. I was actually just talking to them about this. When they demo their top-of-the line stuff at audio shows, they told me they typically use 10-12ft PC's, 2-3m IC's, and 12-14ft Speaker cables. But their cables are so unusual I wouldn't at all take that as normal, especially for ICs and speaker cables where shorter is almost always better. OTOH, the place where you have your rig now won't always be where it sits, so I would suggest getting one slightly longer than you currently need, so in case you move, and your rig ends up a little farther away from the outlet, you've got some slack to pick up the extra.

I call BS (on their part). The real reason they reccommend longer is because their cables have a 10 inch diameter and they'll lift up power amps with too much tension hehe.


I would tend to agree with shorter is better, but on the other hand I can see how you'd rather make the last 3 feet the last 6 feet after all that homewiring.

 

[PhilS]

If the cable is short, it can also sometimes be hard to bend in a certain direction, especially if it has a thick jacket or is really stiff for other reasons. I have some cables that are fairly stiff , but they are 6', and this allows them to loop around so that they can go where I need them to go.

 

[Patrick82]

Shorter cable with cleaner power.

If you don't have a power conditioner you need a longer cable for the coloration to be effective.

 

[883dave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Shorter cable with cleaner power. If you don't have a power conditioner you need a longer cable for the coloration to be effective.

Coloration???? Are you serious? Where are you getting your information?

I have always been under the impression, in this hobby, that we wanted to listen to the music the way the artists recorded it WITHOUT coloration.

The benefit of a power cord is to clean up the electrical supply so as to take some of the coloration/distortion away.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave Coloration???? Are you serious? Where are you getting your information? I have always been under the impression, in this hobby, that we wanted to listen to the music the way the artists recorded it WITHOUT coloration. The benefit of a power cord is to clean up the electrical supply so as to take some of the coloration/distortion away.

If you hear a difference when adding a cable after miles of crappy wiring then it's colored. The background is blacker from all aftermarket power cords because of EMI rejection from the component itself. But they are all colored and each has their own sound signature no matter where you put it. If a cable has a sound signature then it is colored.

Nordost Valhalla is fatter than neutral which gives a blacker background and an illusion of greater dynamics, but with the sacrifice of detail. Modding it thinner reveals more background noise in the system, even when power conditioning is used. In my system the background noise came from vibration.

At first I thought the cable needed to be a certain size to bring out the bass, but I was wrong, a thicker cable just adds extra bass on top of the music, but that's not how it's supposed to sound like. If the system sounds thin you can use a fat cable to compensate for that weakness, but if the system doesn't have any weaknesses then the fat cable gives an overkill in bass and you need a thinner cable.
5 step vibration isolation solved this problem for me and enabled me to use a single 16 AWG Valhalla conductor for the whole system instead of 3 x 16AWG like the stock Valhalla has.

I believe the Tara Labs Zero has the least amount of coloration because of the rectangular conductor and vacuum dielectric. But I like the coloration of Valhalla better because the silver plated copper makes everything sound more distinct, which makes it sound like real life. But it's still colored, colored for the good.

 

[Jeff Wong]

There are some people that make the argument that you want at least 2 metres due to wavelength theory. If nothing else, I find that 2 metres allows for flexibility of placement.

 

[883dave]

Patrick...

Here is an audio term for coloration

"Coloration: Listening term. A visual analog. A "colored" sound characteristic adds something not in the original sound. The coloration may be euphonically pleasant, but it is not as accurate as the original signal.

Does the Valhalla PC actually make the sound comming out of your system sound better to you? Do you strive for accurate reproduction that the artist wanted you to hear? Or are you trying to tailor "Color" the sound to your liking?

I think I understand what you are getting at, it is just the terminology that is dubious.

The goal of a good PC is to clean up the signal allowing more of the original signal to come through without added "COLORATION". -refer to the above definition- , what you might say is "the original PC added so much coloration that I did not enjoy the sound, once I added my new PC the sound cleaned up, thus allowing me to hear more of the original recording"

Also, have you actually tried the Tara Labs "Zero" power cable?

You also refer to neutral, what are you using as your benchmark for neutral?

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave Here is an audio term for coloration "Coloration: Listening term. A visual analog. A "colored" sound characteristic adds something not in the original sound. The coloration may be euphonically pleasant, but it is not as accurate as the original signal.

A stock cable adds background noise because of RFI/EMI. A shielded cable adds muddiness. Everything is colored, all you can do is choose which one you like the most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave Does the Valhalla PC actually make the sound comming out of your system sound better to you? Do you strive for accurate reproduction that the artist wanted you to hear? Or are you trying to tailor "Color" the sound to your liking?

Yes, compared to all other cables I have tried. I want as little color as possible. After reading reviews I thought Valhalla was neutral but it isn't. It only sounds neutral because it sounds like real life. But it doesn't show what's on the recording, it shows a fake recording which sounds better to most people because it hides problems in the system.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave Also, have you actually tried the Tara Labs "Zero" power cable?

No, the power cable isn't released yet. Only the cables with RCA connectors are available. But even if it was already available I would rather cut my Valhallas to pieces and pay 1/10th of the price. The vacuum dielectric cables can't be hardwired. I have all my Valhallas hardwired which makes it better even when it's colored. And besides, I'm not sure the silver plated copper gives that much coloration since it's an AC signal feeding the power supply.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave You also refer to neutral, what are you using as your benchmark for neutral?

I don't know what neutral is, all I can do is experiment and hope. Usually when detail is improved it's more neutral, so improving detail is what I focus on.

 

[883dave]

Patrick...

I see we are mostly on the same page, just a different way of expression. Me I strive for lack of coloration (I know not possible)

I am a firm believer that cables are the last component in your system. To me, once you have found the main components...ie source, amplification, transducer, then it is time for cables. A cable can not make a cheap component better, all it can do it transmit the signal as cleanly (-without coloration if you will-) as possible between two components. Once the recording playback has been degraded it can not be made better...ie crap in crap out.

I am also from the camp the cables do make a difference (to my ears), so far though I have found that interconnects have been the biggest bang for the buck, followed by tonearm cable, speaker cable, dedicated lines with upgraded recpticles, and then power cable. I must admit that I am just now starting to really play with PC's, so maybe I have not found that special one yet.

Have you tried dedicated lines?

As for Neutral...I use live UN-AMPLIFIED music as my reference (best is open air), what could be better, or more real?

 

[Melchior]

The number one goal is to keep any powercords as far away from line level and speaker cables as possible. Shielded powercords are good, and along with shielded interconnects should prevent audible interference even when right next to each other, but it never hurts to route things away from each other anyways. If they do have to be right next to each other try to get the powercord to cross the line level stuff as close to a 90 degree angle as possible. So that in mind I'd pick a shielded powercord that is long enough to fit your system needs.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 If you hear a difference when adding a cable after miles of crappy wiring then it's colored. The background is blacker from all aftermarket power cords because of EMI rejection from the component itself. But they are all colored and each has their own sound signature no matter where you put it. If a cable has a sound signature then it is colored. Nordost Valhalla is fatter than neutral which gives a blacker background and an illusion of greater dynamics, but with the sacrifice of detail. Modding it thinner reveals more background noise in the system, even when power conditioning is used. In my system the background noise came from vibration. At first I thought the cable needed to be a certain size to bring out the bass, but I was wrong, a thicker cable just adds extra bass on top of the music, but that's not how it's supposed to sound like. If the system sounds thin you can use a fat cable to compensate for that weakness, but if the system doesn't have any weaknesses then the fat cable gives an overkill in bass and you need a thinner cable. 5 step vibration isolation solved this problem for me and enabled me to use a single 16 AWG Valhalla conductor for the whole system instead of 3 x 16AWG like the stock Valhalla has. I believe the Tara Labs Zero has the least amount of coloration because of the rectangular conductor and vacuum dielectric. But I like the coloration of Valhalla better because the silver plated copper makes everything sound more distinct, which makes it sound like real life. But it's still colored, colored for the good.

That is strange, most professional reviewers think that the Nordost cables are one of the most neutral cables on the market.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave A cable can not make a cheap component better, all it can do it transmit the signal as cleanly (-without coloration if you will-) as possible between two components. Once the recording playback has been degraded it can not be made better...ie crap in crap out.

Interconnects and digital cables are just there to pass through the signal without coloration so they can't do anything to improve the components. But if the signal from the power cord is bad it infects the power supply of the component and makes it perform worse, so a shielded power cord will improve a cheap component because of less RFI/EMI. A power conditioner will improve it even more.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave Have you tried dedicated lines?

No, but if I do it I will use Valhalla.


Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave As for Neutral...I use live UN-AMPLIFIED music as my reference (best is open air), what could be better, or more real?

Realistic unrealism perhaps?


Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline That is strange, most professional reviewers think that the Nordost cables are one of the most neutral cables on the market.

Maybe it is, but not neutral enough.