Listening to IEMs balanced?

[Luis Mad]

I am a recent convert to balanced. I recently bought an A&K SR25 that has 3,5 and 2,5 outputs. I decided to try the balanced output. I bought the Final Audio E4000 iems and Linsoul Tripowin Zonie balanced cable. I do not know if it is the DAP, the specific output of this DAP, the cables, or the iems, or maybe even placebo effect. I do not know the reason, but the balanced output sounds way better to me. Not only volume. No scientific evidence on my side. The result is that I am now waiting to receive an order of a balanced cable for my open over ear headphones, Sennheiser HD 599. So I’m a convert!

 

[bigshot]

As you say, there is no scientific evidence on your side. But it is perfectly fine to invest in placebo if it makes you happy.

 

[megabigeye]

I consider myself the opposite of a balanced devotee. I find it incredibly irritating that manufacturers essentially cripple the single-ended output of their devices so that the balanced sounds better by comparison, forcing users to buy (generally overpriced) cables and adapters that they wouldn't otherwise need.

My reasoning is this:
1) there's nothing inherent to a balanced circuit/connection that makes it sound better than single-ended;
2) on a device with both a balanced and a single-ended output, either:
2a) both outputs sound the same, or:
2b) one of the outputs sounds better than the other;
3) given 1):
if 2a) is true, there's no reason to use balanced because the single-ended sounds just as good,
if 2b) is true, then it's a deliberate design decision to make one (generally single-ended) sound worse than the other;
4) there's some other reason manufacturers design this way, my guess is that it's to pander to audiophiles that don't know any better.

I feel my blood pressure go up any time I even look at my FiiO BTR5. I feel like that company thinks I'm an idiot.
I would love it if somebody pointed to some horrible error in my thinking so that I can stop feeling so irritated by it.

 

[bigshot]

They're catering to a part of the market that believes more complicated means better quality. I see photos of people's portable rigs that include multiple black boxes connected like a phone switchboard with a bunch of massive cables. You'd need a backpack to carry around a "portable system" like that. Personally, I prefer fidelity, simplicity and elegance in serving the intended purpose.

 

[KeithPhantom]

I consider myself the opposite of a balanced devotee. I find it incredibly irritating that manufacturers essentially cripple the single-ended output of their devices so that the balanced sounds better by comparison, forcing users to buy (generally overpriced) cables and adapters that they wouldn't otherwise need.

My reasoning is this:
1) there's nothing inherent to a balanced circuit/connection that makes it sound better than single-ended;
2) on a device with both a balanced and a single-ended output, either:
2a) both outputs sound the same, or:
2b) one of the outputs sounds better than the other;
3) given 1):
if 2a) is true, there's no reason to use balanced because the single-ended sounds just as good,
if 2b) is true, then it's a deliberate design decision to make one (generally single-ended) sound worse than the other;
4) there's some other reason manufacturers design this way, my guess is that it's to pander to audiophiles that don't know any better.

I feel my blood pressure go up any time I even look at my FiiO BTR5. I feel like that company thinks I'm an idiot.
I would love it if somebody pointed to some horrible error in my thinking so that I can stop feeling so irritated by it.

This, even though balanced provides some protection against noise (obviously, something you won't find in many homes to justify the investment) and some crosstalk improvements (crosstalk is usually noticeable at > -20 dB). After that, there is no improvement a balanced connection can make if properly designed and given the same amount of power as differential.

 

[megabigeye]

They're catering to a part of the market that believes more complicated means better quality. I see photos of people's portable rigs that include multiple black boxes connected like a phone switchboard with a bunch of massive cables. You'd need a backpack to carry around a "portable system" like that. Personally, I prefer fidelity, simplicity and elegance in serving the intended purpose.

Replace the word "catering" with "pandering" and you and I are in agreement. "Catering" makes it sound like they're not culpable.

 

[moskwiz]

I have a question.

Disclaimer: It's maybe a little bit offtopic and also I hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes by resurrecting this thread, instead of making a new one. Just that I don't know if my question is disqualifyingly stupid or not. I tend to think I know the answer, but since my understanding of the electronics behind this is minimal, I might as well just ask. So here goes.

In terms of detachable cable 2-pin/MMCX IEMs, does just the cable dictate whether they're balanced/unbalanced or can IEMs in-body circuitry make them balanced/unbalanced only as well and if so, how can I tell?

Another wording - in detachable cable IEMs, are they all balanced as long as they have or are connected to a balanced cable,
Another wording - if my DAP/DAC has a balanced out and the cable is balanced, will any IEMs functioning "become balanced" as a result?
Last wording - are there detachable cable IEMs that are unbalanced only or otherwise incompatible with balanced cables/sources and if so, how do I know?

Follow-up question: I understand that "harder to drive" or "power hungry" IEMs/headphones mostly are due to higher impedance. But there seem to be lower impedance IEMs that also benefit from more wattage (like Tin Hifi P1 and P2 for example). Why are some lower impedance IEMs power hungry and hence would benefit from a balanced source (balanced having way more wattage)?

Thanks and again sorry if this question seems numbingly stupid

PS. I own a pair of Sony XBA-N3AP and they've been said to "scale well with better sources" - would they benefit in SQ from a 4.4 balanced? Source being Hiby R6 2020, which has ~235mw on SE output but 750mw on balanced.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Balanced only means that each IEM gets a positive and negative from the DAP. Regular 3.5mm (non-pro) has a shared ground. 4.4mm and 2.5 have four wires connected to the DAP as does the 3.5mm Pro.

The Sony ecosystem supports 4.4mm having a slightly more powerful amp in the players. So with DAP use it’s a separation of two different amps. The amp for 3.5mm on the 1A and 1Z have single ended separate amps. The other side of the amp board has 4.4mm and different parts making that amp more powerful. In microphone cables the methodology of balance uses a reverse signal which cancels out the actual interference noise that would add noise to the long microphone cable. In small headphone lines there is no proof of balanced being better or quieter or having a blacker background. With Sony in a way it’s both the practicality of a stronger plug. And a plug for use inside and outside the house that’s in between 1/4inch and 3.5mm. So it’s a balanced plug stronger than 2.5mm balanced and sounds better with the XBA-N3 due to tapping into a profoundly better amp in the DAPs. On the flip side there are actually IEMs which sound better from the 3.5mm amp section. So some IEMs don’t need the power.

People will get confused as 4.4mm on the 1A and 1Z does have wider soundstage. Combine that with like the XBA-Z5, that needs power and it’s great marketing and great (better than 3.5mm) sound.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I have a question.

Disclaimer: It's maybe a little bit offtopic and also I hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes by resurrecting this thread, instead of making a new one. Just that I don't know if my question is disqualifyingly stupid or not. I tend to think I know the answer, but since my understanding of the electronics behind this is minimal, I might as well just ask. So here goes.

In terms of detachable cable 2-pin/MMCX IEMs, does just the cable dictate whether they're balanced/unbalanced or can IEMs in-body circuitry make them balanced/unbalanced only as well and if so, how can I tell?

Another wording - in detachable cable IEMs, are they all balanced as long as they have or are connected to a balanced cable,
Another wording - if my DAP/DAC has a balanced out and the cable is balanced, will any IEMs functioning "become balanced" as a result?
Last wording - are there detachable cable IEMs that are unbalanced only or otherwise incompatible with balanced cables/sources and if so, how do I know?

Follow-up question: I understand that "harder to drive" or "power hungry" IEMs/headphones mostly are due to higher impedance. But there seem to be lower impedance IEMs that also benefit from more wattage (like Tin Hifi P1 and P2 for example). Why are some lower impedance IEMs power hungry and hence would benefit from a balanced source (balanced having way more wattage)?

Thanks and again sorry if this question seems numbingly stupid

PS. I own a pair of Sony XBA-N3AP and they've been said to "scale well with better sources" - would they benefit in SQ from a 4.4 balanced? Source being Hiby R6 2020, which has ~235mw on SE output but 750mw on balanced.

I have the N3 on 4.4mm and it does sound better from more power from the 4.4mm amp in the Sony DAPs. But it is not from balanced but from a different louder amp. It tightens up the bass transients.

Cheers!

 

[moskwiz]

Balanced only means that each IEM gets a positive and negative from the DAP. Regular 3.5mm (non-pro) has a shared ground. 4.4mm and 2.5 have four wires connected to the DAP as does the 3.5mm Pro.

Thanks! So there is nothing in different (detachable cable) IEMs inner wirings that makes them incompatible with balanced cables?

 

[Roseval]

It is very simple.
IEM’s or any other headphones are not “balanced”
You have 2 drivers and of course both need a hot and a ground.
You can connect them in 2 ways.
TRS: you have L,R and a common ground.
TRRS: you have L/Lground, R/Rground.
This is exactly as we connect speakers to a stereo and nothing balanced about it.

If you have TRS (3 wire), all you can do is using 2 amp’s (one per channel as it is stereo) with a common ground.
It you have a TRRS (4 wire) now you can use a “balanced” amp= 2x2 amps.
Per channel one amp pushing and the other pulling.
This doubles the power and also the distortion.
You can’t do this using a common ground hence you need a 4-wire connection
Hence headphones are not balanced.
The wiring is not balanced either.
But if you want to use what they called a balanced amp (one with floating grounds for L/R) you need a 4 wire connection.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Thanks! So there is nothing in different (detachable cable) IEMs inner wirings that makes them incompatible with balanced cables?

It’s the wires that allow all IEMs to go either 3.5mm single ended or balanced. It happens in the plug and IEM cables. IEMs remain the same.

It is part marketing as balanced has never been proven to be better. If you had a super hard to drive IEM like the XBA-Z5, you could try balanced from the Sony ZX300 and have the XBA-Z5 sound better with more power from a 1/4inch to 3.5mm single ended (desk-top) if the ZX300 was wasn’t powerful enough. All IEMs can hook to balanced having a separate ground or single ended 3.5mm sharing the ground.

 

[moskwiz]

Okay, another question. I'll spare the disclaimer. This is just confusing af.

Is it just the plug that makes a cable "balanced" or are there differences in the wiring of the cable too?
I always thought that it's the wiring of the cables too, but then I got confused because some modular plug cables (like DUNU DUW02) can just be swapped between SE 3.5 or balanced 4.4 plugs. Further more, Linsoul has a bunch of IEM cables for sale but they have no information on whether they're balanced or not.. How do I tell a SE cable and a balanced cable apart? linsoul.com/collections/accesories

I'm only doing this, because thinking of getting Tin P1's and they've been said to benefit greatly from more powerful out (listening on Hiby R6 2020), so Hibys 4.4 BAL out seems like a good source for them.

 

[Redcarmoose]

If the plug for sale says 4.4mm balance Pentaconn or 2.5mm or 3.5mm Pro then they are balanced. It may just say 4.4mm, 2.5mm or 3.5mm Pro and you know they are balanced due to the plug.

3.5mm and 1/4 inch are not balanced. DUNU does sell adapter plug sets that let you plug 3.5mm into a balanced cable and use it with a single ended amp.

I’m not sure if regular 3.5mm are balanced? I think they are not, they have only three wires. Balanced is always 4 total wires.

 

[IEMusic]

Okay, another question. I'll spare the disclaimer. This is just confusing af.

Is it just the plug that makes a cable "balanced" or are there differences in the wiring of the cable too?
I always thought that it's the wiring of the cables too, but then I got confused because some modular plug cables (like DUNU DUW02) can just be swapped between SE 3.5 or balanced 4.4 plugs. Further more, Linsoul has a bunch of IEM cables for sale but they have no information on whether they're balanced or not.. How do I tell a SE cable and a balanced cable apart? linsoul.com/collections/accesories

I'm only doing this, because thinking of getting Tin P1's and they've been said to benefit greatly from more powerful out (listening on Hiby R6 2020), so Hibys 4.4 BAL out seems like a good source for them.

Look at the number of rings on the plug. 2 rings means single ended/not balanced. 3 rings (as long as there is no inline remote/mic) means balanced. Each of those rings is a divider to separate the conductors. 2 rings = 3 conductors (tip, ring (the conducting ring in between the dividers), sleeve, or TRS). 3 rings = 4 conductors (tip, ring, ring, sleeve, or TRRS).

Remember, you can always take a balanced cable, and use an adapter to make it single ended/not balanced. NEVER, take an unbalanced cable and use an adapter to make it “balanced”. It is impossible to add another complete conductor with an adapter, and it can destroy the amp.