Listening quality?
Feb 17, 2012 at 3:46 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

Headphonefred

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I'm thinking of getting the grado sr60i headphones due to their suitable price and high quality sound quality.
People have said in reviews that the grado needs amping, so can someone recommend a good amp for about £20?
also as these headphones are meant to be high quality sound, can anyone recommend a good stereo system or music format which I should use if I want to 'hear the music' as well a the headphones can deliver?
Thanks
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 3:49 AM Post #2 of 13
I like the way that my Fiio E11 pairs with my SR80is, but you can run the lower end Grados straight off an iPOd or iPhone, or whatever portable player you have. If you want something on the cheap, just pick up a Fiio E5 or E6...one of my favorite uses for my 80s is to run them right off my laptop. I watch movies and tv shows with them and the details I'm hearing are amazing.
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 4:37 PM Post #5 of 13
It may just be in my mind, but I actually don't like the headphone output on the iPod at all. That's why I say I like the way my Grados sound with my Fiio better, cause I bypass the headphone amp on the iPod and use the line out dock instead. This may be what you're experiencing, HFFred. I love my iPod, but the little headphone amp is a piece of you know what.
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 5:47 PM Post #6 of 13
I'm more apt to believe the "dislike" on the iPod's headphone driver (and of course there's only one iPod device ever designed in twelve years and they've never revised or changed anything, so we'll treat the entirety as one singular design with identical specs 
tongue_smile.gif
) is probably more connected to the music being played back: are we dealing with quality data here, or garbage?
 
Anyways, the Fiio parts are fairly cheap, and can address the problem of a wimpy headphone driver quite easily. 
 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 5:56 PM Post #7 of 13


Quote:
I'm more apt to believe the "dislike" on the iPod's headphone driver (and of course there's only one iPod device ever designed in twelve years and they've never revised or changed anything, so we'll treat the entirety as one singular design with identical specs 
tongue_smile.gif
) is probably more connected to the music being played back: are we dealing with quality data here, or garbage?
 
Anyways, the Fiio parts are fairly cheap, and can address the problem of a wimpy headphone driver quite easily. 
 



That's actually something I'm not clear on. My iPod is full of songs ripped in apple lossless but I know the device is not capable of playing them back in that format unless you're using something like the AlgoRhythm Solo or one of the few other products that extracts the 1s and 0s directly. I don't know what the iPod downgrades the tracks to, but I know I'm not hearing lossless music out of the LOD or headphone jack. That being said, the LOD does sound better to me than the headphone output, and that's consistent whether I'm using my Fiio or my ZO.
 
I have a PURE iPod dock that does allow for bit perfect playback, though, so when my Meier amp gets in I'll be able to hear lossless files through my headphones.
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:05 PM Post #8 of 13

There's not really a lot of audible difference between high bitrate (notice: HIGH) lossy encodes and lossless encodes; it's minimal. It also depends on the material being encoded (some data lends itself to being smashed better). iPod actually does play ALAC, if it's a newer model - again, you can't just say "iPod" and assume we can talk about the device; "iPod" can mean everything from the original 1G of the late 1990s to the modern renditions with touch screens. There's a hell of a lot of variation there. My guess is you're getting "full lossless" out of the iPod, but there's either an impedance mismatch or a gain structure squibble that gives you an audible difference between LOD+amp vs internal; and that's where you're getting "better" or "worse" from (in other words, there's no magic involved). 
 
Ultimately, I wouldn't worry too much about "bit perfect" and other buzzwords; my contention on "are you playing garbage" is more along the lines of people ripping CDs into 96k or 128k because they can get "a whole lot more and it's all the same thing" and then complaining about the fidelity. That said, some material will actually survive 96k or 128k just fine - it's fairly rare though. 4:1 or similar is almost certainly transparent though (at least with WMA or mp3; there are smarter encoders out there, like Dolby AC-3, but they deviate more from the original material (it's all based on understood psychoacoustics and data theory)). 
 
In other words, there's only so much you can do to ensure things are working correctly, and doing a whole lot more (at huge cost, of course) doesn't get you anything but a lot of new toys to show off. 
Quote:
That's actually something I'm not clear on. My iPod is full of songs ripped in apple lossless but I know the device is not capable of playing them back in that format unless you're using something like the AlgoRhythm Solo or one of the few other products that extracts the 1s and 0s directly. I don't know what the iPod downgrades the tracks to, but I know I'm not hearing lossless music out of the LOD or headphone jack. That being said, the LOD does sound better to me than the headphone output, and that's consistent whether I'm using my Fiio or my ZO.
 
I have a PURE iPod dock that does allow for bit perfect playback, though, so when my Meier amp gets in I'll be able to hear lossless files through my headphones.



 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:12 PM Post #9 of 13
The SR-60i is one of the easiest headphones to drive, so it doesn't really "need" anything.  But getting a line out dock and even a simple amplifier like the E5 or E11 will be a solid improvement over the iPod's headphone jack.
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:15 PM Post #10 of 13


Quote:
There's not really a lot of audible difference between high bitrate (notice: HIGH) lossy encodes and lossless encodes; it's minimal. It also depends on the material being encoded (some data lends itself to being smashed better). iPod actually does play ALAC, if it's a newer model - again, you can't just say "iPod" and assume we can talk about the device; "iPod" can mean everything from the original 1G of the late 1990s to the modern renditions with touch screens. There's a hell of a lot of variation there. My guess is you're getting "full lossless" out of the iPod, but there's either an impedance mismatch or a gain structure squibble that gives you an audible difference between LOD+amp vs internal; and that's where you're getting "better" or "worse" from (in other words, there's no magic involved). 
 
Ultimately, I wouldn't worry too much about "bit perfect" and other buzzwords; my contention on "are you playing garbage" is more along the lines of people ripping CDs into 96k or 128k because they can get "a whole lot more and it's all the same thing" and then complaining about the fidelity. That said, some material will actually survive 96k or 128k just fine - it's fairly rare though. 4:1 or similar is almost certainly transparent though (at least with WMA or mp3; there are smarter encoders out there, like Dolby AC-3, but they deviate more from the original material (it's all based on understood psychoacoustics and data theory)). 
 
In other words, there's only so much you can do to ensure things are working correctly, and doing a whole lot more (at huge cost, of course) doesn't get you anything but a lot of new toys to show off. 


 


Interesting, thanks for that feedback. So my iPod is the most current version of the Classic line...the 7th generation. And to be clear, you're saying that it actually IS outputting my files in full apple lossless? And I agree about the differences between lossless playback and a higher quality lossy file. Some of the MP3s I've downloaded from Amazon (which I think are in 320kbps?) sound really good on my main home rig. I don't think I could tell the difference between those and the lossless tracks most of the time, depending on the material.
 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:16 PM Post #11 of 13


Quote:
The SR-60i is one of the easiest headphones to drive, so it doesn't really "need" anything.  But getting a line out dock and even a simple amplifier like the E5 or E11 will be a solid improvement over the iPod's headphone jack.



My experience, as well. I bought my girlfriend a little E5 to pair with her Nano, and it was a noticeable improvement. For $19 USD, those little Fiio E5s are great.
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:32 PM Post #12 of 13

From everything I've read, ALAC will fly on any modern iDevice (from Apple: http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html - ALAC is listed). I don't have a lot of experience within the Apple ecosystem, but it makes sense and I generally don't distrust Apple specs (lossless on a portable isn't all that demanding assuming there's not a licence problem). I do believe you're right that Amazonmp3 is 320k (everything I have from Amazon is 320k as well) - 320k is a great compromise between size and performance to be quite honest (now, if I was doing archival work, I'd absolutely go lossless, but that's for different reasons). 
 
I'm not trying to say amplifiers are "pointless" but to be quite blunt: I've yet to see/use/try/own/etc a Grado that doesn't run just fine straight from a mobile phone or my PDP (which is admittedly not an iPod). Grados are low-impedance and sensitive, and have a fairly stable impedance FR; they don't go nuts like, say, a Beyerdynamic T1 (which really does require dedicated amplification), or need oodles of noodles of juice like a K1000 or HE-6.
Quote:
Interesting, thanks for that feedback. So my iPod is the most current version of the Classic line...the 7th generation. And to be clear, you're saying that it actually IS outputting my files in full apple lossless? And I agree about the differences between lossless playback and a higher quality lossy file. Some of the MP3s I've downloaded from Amazon (which I think are in 320kbps?) sound really good on my main home rig. I don't think I could tell the difference between those and the lossless tracks most of the time, depending on the material.
 



 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM Post #13 of 13


Quote:
From everything I've read, ALAC will fly on any modern iDevice (from Apple: http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html - ALAC is listed). I don't have a lot of experience within the Apple ecosystem, but it makes sense and I generally don't distrust Apple specs (lossless on a portable isn't all that demanding assuming there's not a licence problem). I do believe you're right that Amazonmp3 is 320k (everything I have from Amazon is 320k as well) - 320k is a great compromise between size and performance to be quite honest (now, if I was doing archival work, I'd absolutely go lossless, but that's for different reasons). 
 
I'm not trying to say amplifiers are "pointless" but to be quite blunt: I've yet to see/use/try/own/etc a Grado that doesn't run just fine straight from a mobile phone or my PDP (which is admittedly not an iPod). Grados are low-impedance and sensitive, and have a fairly stable impedance FR; they don't go nuts like, say, a Beyerdynamic T1 (which really does require dedicated amplification), or need oodles of noodles of juice like a K1000 or HE-6.


 




Wow...well that's great news then! I was really close to getting the AlgoRhythm Solo once I got better headphones, cause I wanted to be sure I was enjoying my music in the same format I was ripping it in. Once my Meier amp shows up, I'm going to route my main source (Windows 7 laptop to usb/spdif adapter to DAC) into it instead of the amp for my speaker system. I'll be interested to see if I can discern any difference between it and the LOD on the iPod.
 
And I definitely have found the same thing that the Grados are very easily driven via the headphone jacks...it's just that for some reason it doesn't sound as good to me as the LOD. It's entirely possible that it's my own bias that is attributing to the perceived difference in sound quality...I'm not immune to that, for sure. For whatever reason the headphone jack just seems to be less involving to my ears.
 

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