[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmkap /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tin Ears, I'm not your parent, so its not my place to tell you what is and isn't safe and what steps you should take to maximize your safety. If one lifts the ground, the only time it matters is if, and only if, there is a fault where that safety ground is needed, admittedly a rare situation. I look at it the same way as having trigger locks on any guns in a house where children may be present. You can look at it any way you choose. The reason there are still existing ungrounded outlets is that economics trumps safety. So what else is new? All new construction and 'filed' improvements require grounded outlets. Personally, I've never met a ground loop I couldn't fix with either the techniques outlined by Dan Banquer or the loop breaker from ESP (links provided in the link in my post above). If you can't be bothered, or lack the requisite skills, do whatever you want. Its not my problem. I'm not interested in how many folks may or may not be electrocuted; I'm really only interested in those that I care about not risking their lives needlessly as ground loops can be fixed, without compromising safety. If your calculus finds it best to use that cheater plug, probability is obviously on your side, then go for it. After trying to understand the logic of your response, I might actually encourage you to lift all the grounds. Statistically, it may be best, longterm, for mankind. Heck, we all do unsafe things. I enjoy prime cuts of beef with their high fat content, even though I know given my age and family history its not overly wise. As an aside, there is no such thing as a 'cheater plug'. Those plugs are there to provide a grounded socket where none existed prior, as they're supposed to be used to tie that little tag via the cover screw to a grounded box housing the outlet. If one chooses to repurpose those plugs, its not my problem, or concern. FWIW

your fuse will blow or your home system fuse will blow if there is a short. there are lots of commercial cdplayers and amps using only 2 wires, no ground. Every applience has a fuse, so earthing is used for other things then protection and it influences the sound badly!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3NTAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Im not an electrical engineer, but what I gather from the links it that the only proper way is to setup a ground outside my home?

exactly. a big copper core driven into the ground. So, obviously the ground on appliences is only false protection to make you think you're in the clear. i'd rather have a fuse in an amp then earth wire.

 

[pmkap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif your fuse will blow or your home system fuse will blow if there is a short

And why would you assume that?
If I've an internal short to a conductive chassis, no fault current flows until a ground return path is provided to the chassis. Lets look at 2 choices -

1. The chassis is connected to the mains safety ground, and as a low impedance path, sufficient current flows from the chassis to the safety ground and the fuse trips.

2. One has circumvented the supplied chassis to mains safety ground connection, and you get the exact same short to the chassis. Nothing may happen.... UNTIL ... it is provided a ground return path. If that ground path happens to be a happless individual touching a radiator, water pipe, outlet plate, or anything that provides a connection to 'earth', the current will flow through them. And if one is grounded (electrically, easier than one initially imagines) you're a medium impedance pathway. I wouldn't necessaraly 'draw' the 2 amps of the fuses in my preamp (let alone the fuses in my power amp) needed to trip the fuses
http://www.aic.cuhk.edu.hk/web8/electrocution.htm
Quote:

Cardiac effects AC of 30-200 mA may cause VF currents >5 A cause asystole other arrhythmias may occur myocardial damage. ST and T wave changes. Global LV dysfunction may occur hours to days later, even with minimal ECG changes MI has been reported. Diagnosis difficult due to raised CK levels (including CK-MB) from extensive muscle injury Skeletal muscle tetanic contractions with currents >15-20 mA. Prevent voluntary release of source of electrocution may cause #s of long bones and vertebrae compartment syndrome is a common manifestation of electrical injury to a limb

http://www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc...7&nh=0&ssect=1
Quote:

Current thresholds have been established for alternating current, as well as for other conditions defined above. The current intensity during electrification is unknown, since it is a function of tissue resistance at the moment of contact (I = V/R), but is generally perceptible at levels of approximately 1 mA. Relatively low currents can cause muscular contractions that may prevent a victim from letting go of an energized object. The threshold of this current is a function of condensity, contact area, contact pressure and individual variations. Virtually all men and almost all women and children can let go at currents up to 6 mA. At 10 mA it has been observed that 98.5% of men and 60% of women and 7.5% of children can let go. Only 7.5% of men and no women or children can let go at 20mA. No one can let go at 30mA and greater.

So, with 30+ ma flowing though a person, they can't let go, and it might well 'muck' up their heart's function. My kids are grown and out of the house.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif :there are lots of commercial cdplayers and amps using only 2 wires, no ground.

In this wonderful world of contingent probabilities, we can increase safety by providing and alternate to a person's body as a fault ground return path, via grounding a conductive chassis to the mains saftey ground, as #1 above,
OR
Minimize and PROVE that the possibility of a short to chassis (accessable parts) has been minimized, by standards certification.
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif :Every applience has a fuse, so earthing is used for other things then protection and it influences the sound badly!

Mains safety grounds are for exactly that, safety. Indeed, ground loops are bad for sound. So fix the ground loops. There is no need to compromise safety. The following links provide techniques that don't add danger-
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...rophead&n=8150
http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm

Inevitably, risk is relative. Nevertheless, as Dirty Harry said '..... are you feeling lucky?....'

 

[Logistics]

Hey, I wanna know if the OP ever fixed his problem, but it's going to become exceedingly more irritating to come back to this thread only to find that the new posts consist soley of Users having an unrelated debate.

you guys seriously, seriously you guys

 

[M3NTAL]

Thanks Logistics - my problem lies in my Pre/Pro. I get the same sound through its headphone jack.

I'm going to try an extension cord tonight that is 3 to 2 to see if that fixes the problem or if it is just the nature of the pre.

I'll reply later this evening with my findings.

 

[M3NTAL]

...well - I hooked it up to the cheater cable and the buzz went away. So I un-plugged it and re plugged the pre/pro back into the surge protector and checked again. The buzz seems to be gone. Not sure if I stuck it back into a different slot in the surge protector or not or what happened. I know I heard the pre/pro reset it self when I unplugged it. It made a beep when un-plugging and re-plugging.

Weird, but I'm satisfied for a little longer LOL

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmkap /img/forum/go_quote.gif And why would you assume that? If I've an internal short to a conductive chassis, no fault current flows until a ground return path is provided to the chassis. Lets look at 2 choices - 1. The chassis is connected to the mains safety ground, and as a low impedance path, sufficient current flows from the chassis to the safety ground and the fuse trips. 2. One has circumvented the supplied chassis to mains safety ground connection, and you get the exact same short to the chassis. Nothing may happen.... UNTIL ... it is provided a ground return path. If that ground path happens to be a happless individual touching a radiator, water pipe, outlet plate, or anything that provides a connection to 'earth', the current will flow through them. And if one is grounded (electrically, easier than one initially imagines) you're a medium impedance pathway. I wouldn't necessaraly 'draw' the 2 amps of the fuses in my preamp (let alone the fuses in my power amp) needed to trip the fuses http://www.aic.cuhk.edu.hk/web8/electrocution.htm http://www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc...7&nh=0&ssect=1 So, with 30+ ma flowing though a person, they can't let go, and it might well 'muck' up their heart's function. My kids are grown and out of the house. In this wonderful world of contingent probabilities, we can increase safety by providing and alternate to a person's body as a fault ground return path, via grounding a conductive chassis to the mains saftey ground, as #1 above, OR Minimize and PROVE that the possibility of a short to chassis (accessable parts) has been minimized, by standards certification. Mains safety grounds are for exactly that, safety. Indeed, ground loops are bad for sound. So fix the ground loops. There is no need to compromise safety. The following links provide techniques that don't add danger- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...rophead&n=8150 http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm Inevitably, risk is relative. Nevertheless, as Dirty Harry said '..... are you feeling lucky?....'

So, you would think a cdplayer without an earthwire wouldn't trip a fuse?! Shows you just don't know what you're talking about and just collect some knowledge off the web!

For your info, if you look at schematics, you would know a fuse is in the path, the plus! Cdplayers and amps that have only 2 wires are also certified!

If there's a short in an amp or cdplayer the fuse would blow even before you could touch the amp or cdplayer. If it's even worse, your home system fuse blows as well.

Gee, i throw a hairdryer into the bathtob; i really feel save with the earthwire. if i were you, i wouldn't go in there.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmkap /img/forum/go_quote.gif And why would you assume that? If I've an internal short to a conductive chassis, no fault current flows until a ground return path is provided to the chassis. Lets look at 2 choices - 1. The chassis is connected to the mains safety ground, and as a low impedance path, sufficient current flows from the chassis to the safety ground and the fuse trips. 2. One has circumvented the supplied chassis to mains safety ground connection, and you get the exact same short to the chassis. Nothing may happen.... UNTIL ... it is provided a ground return path. If that ground path happens to be a happless individual touching a radiator, water pipe, outlet plate, or anything that provides a connection to 'earth', the current will flow through them. And if one is grounded (electrically, easier than one initially imagines) you're a medium impedance pathway. I wouldn't necessaraly 'draw' the 2 amps of the fuses in my preamp (let alone the fuses in my power amp) needed to trip the fuses http://www.aic.cuhk.edu.hk/web8/electrocution.htm http://www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc...7&nh=0&ssect=1 So, with 30+ ma flowing though a person, they can't let go, and it might well 'muck' up their heart's function. My kids are grown and out of the house. In this wonderful world of contingent probabilities, we can increase safety by providing and alternate to a person's body as a fault ground return path, via grounding a conductive chassis to the mains saftey ground, as #1 above, OR Minimize and PROVE that the possibility of a short to chassis (accessable parts) has been minimized, by standards certification. Mains safety grounds are for exactly that, safety. Indeed, ground loops are bad for sound. So fix the ground loops. There is no need to compromise safety. The following links provide techniques that don't add danger- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...rophead&n=8150 http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm Inevitably, risk is relative. Nevertheless, as Dirty Harry said '..... are you feeling lucky?....'

Nope, some designs use earth as minus, instead the minus and the earth, so some bad designs sound bad just because of that! And they use to bleed the nasties into the earth. Has nothing to do with safety. Would i trade a fuse for earth, no way!

 

[Logistics]

Grats, M3NTAL. Hopefully, the buzz will stay gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stuff.

Without an earth ground, isn't there a chance the short will travel through the house and possibly fry something on the way to the house breaker/fuse, whereas with the earth ground it may have traveled to earth?

 

[tin ears]

Well now,

We got rid of the buzz by eliminating the ground. Nice.

Now, I was just at a friend's over the weekend. He has 6 very commonplace manufactured audio components made in the late 80's early 90's.

Tuner, cassette deck, cd player, pre amp, amp, and integrated amp.

Not one component had a three prong ground plug, and not one had double insulated construction.

Moreover, Three out of six didn't even have polarized plugs.

This tells me something about the added value of three prong grounded plugs.

 

[imported_Matt_Carter]

Sounds like an internal issue with the preamp. I'd start the trouble shooting with an RMA.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif Grats, M3NTAL. Hopefully, the buzz will stay gone. Without an earth ground, isn't there a chance the short will travel through the house and possibly fry something on the way to the house breaker/fuse, whereas with the earth ground it may have traveled to earth?

Nope, most pcb's are not directly connected to the chassis(hence 2 core cdplayers and amps) and the earth introduces the waste of other equipment back into the system, cdplayer and amp. It just sounds better without earthwiring. If there is a short, the fuse will blow so fast, it cannot travel trough anything else. The fuse will cut of the current and it cannot get in any other system.

Did you hear of any other equipment blowing up when a piece of equipment caused a short?! Nope, the fuse makes sure it cannot travel any further through the system of that piece of equipment.

Only a direct hit from lightning can make all equipment short out and burn, since that is way more powerfull then any 115 volts or 230 volts. hundreds of thousands of volts.

 

[tourmaline]

dubble post.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tin ears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well now, We got rid of the buzz by eliminating the ground. Nice. Now, I was just at a friend's over the weekend. He has 6 very commonplace manufactured audio components made in the late 80's early 90's. Tuner, cassette deck, cd player, pre amp, amp, and integrated amp. Not one component had a three prong ground plug, and not one had double insulated construction. Moreover, Three out of six didn't even have polarized plugs. This tells me something about the added value of three prong grounded plugs.

As far as i found out through extensive testing with cables, it only introduces more nasties and waste from other equipment into the system then it actually can transport away.

Hence the filtering, seperate powersockets, noise harversters etc.

 

[tin ears]

And another thing, if it were truly important to ground the metal case to prevent a shock from touching the case, the case would be made from a non-conductive material like plastic or wood and not metal, therebye eliminating this possibility altogether.

Tourmaline, I'm thinking you are on to something here. My headphone amp has a 2 amp fast blow fuse. My Cd player has multiple fuses.

Another recent, questionable addition to audio components is the detachable power cord itself. All six of the late 80's early 90's power cords were hardwired lamp cord. Not one had a detacheable power cord.