[Csidinim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuartr /img/forum/go_quote.gif I completely agree with LeftyGorilla. I went a great liberal arts school and people out of our school have no problem getting hired in most of the fields they choose. Many teach, a lot are in the arts, but there are a ton in business or law. In fact, most of the investment banks recruit on our campus...I had a bunch of friends who were English or history majors who went directly from college into high 5 to low 6 figure jobs working at places like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan/Chase and Lehman Brothers (woe be unto them). Part of this is that the school is excellent, but to be honest, employers don't usually care too much about your major -- it is relevant skills, experience and your intelligence.

must have been the family/friends connections. I doubt companies just hire by your attendance to a name school- without any knowledge or experience on the field. so where can you start? with rich connections. boy, that's relieving.

 

[stuartr]

You would be surprised. They hire at these schools precisely because the students went there. The schools do the vetting for them...it is difficult to get in and the education is rigorous, so the people have a good foundation. From there, the companies hire on the basis of interviews and grades. They are highly selective. But really, no one has experience in investment banking (real experience anyway) from college, so they would rather have people who have had good educations...they prefer to train the people in their own way, rather than let a university do it. The connections that they are interested in are the ones the people make at college. So a lot of these students may not have any relation or friend in investment banking, but they went to school with a lot of wealthy people. The banks then have the people they hire try to get their friends to invest with them and so on. So connections play a role, but not as much in getting the job as in executing it.

 

[Csidinim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuartr /img/forum/go_quote.gif The connections that they are interested in are the ones the people make at college. So a lot of these students may not have any relation or friend in investment banking, but they went to school with a lot of wealthy people. The banks then have the people they hire try to get their friends to invest with them and so on.

I see, since you've stated the idea more clearly here. That makes a lot more sense now, despite the depressing cynicism.

 

[greggf]

I have to agree with LeftyGorilla, stuartr, and ingwe.

Oddly enough, a liberal arts major from a good school can be highly sought after for their adaptability and wide knowledge.

They're also more likely to be interesting people.

http://www.greggfedchak.com

 

[goober-george]

Hehe, thanks for the info all.. so it isn't necessary to have a Masters in Liberal Arts, but more importantly to have experience and the right connections? I feel like the right connections is true for most majors, but I think you could go on your own with a degree in computer science. And what if I go to an average university aka "University of Texas San Antonio"?

Also I'd like to say I have way too many interests and that I don't find myself particularly skilled in any one area. Only big qualities I seem to have is patience and an open mind, so liberal arts seems fitting.

 

[ph0rk]

A BA/BS is rapidly becoming to us what a Highschool diploma was to our parents.

If money isn't a concern, get a BA of your choice (many schools, even "Liberal Arts" schools will force you to pick a major) and then do the work you want to do.

If money -will- be a concern, a degree in an obscure humanity will qualify you to be a cop, a schoolteacher, or some other lower tier bluewhite collar job. This isn't meant as a dig against people in those professions, only to point out that random Bachelors degree isn't the door-opening credential it used to be.

At the rate we're going, a Master's degree won't be either. I'd avoid a MALS.

 

[dgbiker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intoflatlines /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am in my third year of B.S. in Psych, and I am really regretting it. Originally I was convinced that I would go on to grad school and eventually get a PhD and become a psychologist, but now I can't imagine going to more school after undergrad is done. Which sucks because getting a BS Psych degree won't help you with finding a job. I wish I would have done engineering like I originally was interested in, or even business.

You can still do human factors engineering. I got my undergrad in Biomedical Engineering with some Psych (industrial and behavioral), Human Factors, and Ergonomics electives, and I'm finishing my MS in mechanical engineering focusing on H.F. I'm looking into human factors jobs and a lot of them want psych majors- there are some that want engineers with some psych and others that want psychs with some engineering. You guys know more about how people interact with their environment than anyone else (especially us nerdy, anti-social engineers). Could be a way to combine interests and/or move in a new direction.
Funny enough, the best teacher I had in my engineering undergrad was an industrial psychologist

 

[vagarach]

My university is rather technically oriented, known for mathematics, computer science, engineering, and such, and well the rivalry is there--members of the arts faculty who are doing liberal arts (i.e., people not in accounting, or economics) deride the engineers and co. for going to university solely to become professionals, who in turn say that a BA in, for example, art history is completely useless, and the liberal people respond by highlighting their noble pursuit of knowledge for knowledge's sake, blah blah

What can be said? If you seriously want to be a professional _____ and there is a good university with a good program in that field, then take it, you can't afford (well, unless you can, but then you wouldn't be asking this question) to dilly dally with a degree in a liberal art which you hope to parlay into above job _____.

If you don't know what you want to do then well you must go to your high school counselor and see what could interest you. Many smart students suddenly are faced with this decision and either just follow what their parents say, or pick at random, or something like that.

If you seriously want to help the homeless then you also need to seriously plan out how you will be doing it, because university doesn't really figure in your ability to provide humanitarian aid, unless you want to help through counseling or similar help-them-help-themselves roles.

 

[chesebert]

Let's see in the world where we live there are only a handful of areas you can study so as to continue your headfi upgratitus:

1. those that figure out unknown things (scientists);
2. those that make things (engineers);
3. those that exchange things for other things (business folks);
4. those that keep 1-5 in check (lawyers); and
5. those that keep 1-5 alive (doctors)

Beyond that you are in the "lucky" zone with no guaranteed future income

 

[crappyjones123]

i was trying to stay away from this topic but with cheesebert leading the way i think i can squeak by behind him.

im a math major. i love it and almost certainly will not be changing majors anytime soon. however, i do know that the chances of me getting a job that pays as well as perhaps and engineer's or a doctor's for the SAME AMOUNT of work are slim to none.

a few months ago, i was discussing the size of our philosophy dept (i have a minor in philosophy as well) with the size at other schools. the professor remarked that there are no more than 40 positions, i repeat, 40 positions available for philosophy majors every year when i showed interest in going to grad school for philosophy. only a few of these would be considered high paying ones. effectively he told me not to go to grad school for philosophy because there were no jobs available. i am not saying that the same argument extends to other disciplines within the arts as well. it may or may not. despite this very learned person's remarks, i continued to pursue a degree in mathematics, and am exploring a possible graduate degree in mathematics and philosophy much like my bachelors.

having a masters or a doctorate alone does not guarentee a job these days. there is also no guarentee that the few jobs you do find will please you nor does it imply that the few jobs you do like will make you capable of supporting a family comfortably. it is all a balancing act. at a different time in history i would say that you could probably get by with something that you just loved doing and the money would come automatically. i dont think that is the case today. cost of living allowance used to be 8% corresponding to the expected inflation rate. the inflation rate has grown to 11% according to last weeks business weekly but the cola has remained the same. which is why there is a trend moving away from jobs that might be personally rewarding to jobs that are financially rewarding. i dont think anyone WANTS to be poor.

having said that, i still maintain that if you love what you do, you WILL find a way to be successful. BUT the definition of successful will vary from person to person. mine only entails personal satisfaction with very little regard for financial security. so if you dont care for what business week or financial pandits have to say about the job market, do what you dear heart desires, but realistically speaking, i would think of the future as well. i dont know if this drives the point home, but even though i love math and i love doing it, i would never advise a high school graduate to consider a degree in it simply because the effort to rewards ratio is not nearly as high as many of the other disciplines. in my opinion, an engineer and a mathematician do the same amount of work in the bachelors program but armed with just a bachelors, an engineer is FAR MORE LIKELY to get a better job than a mathematician. i can live with that. can you?

 

[trickywombat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober-george /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...But what I'd like to do is help the homeless or something..

I commend you for your altruism. Just one question, though. Why do you need to go to college in order to "help the homeless or something..."?
You can help others no matter what your profession is. And it's not just the homeless who need help. The world is getting smaller, and opportunities to help others continue to grow.

Think of what you would love to do on a daily basis "when you grow up". If you can't come up with that, then start from the bottom - what is good enough to motivate you get up in the morning to go to work? May be a good starting point to pick a career and hopefully it will coincide with what you love to do.

Whatever you choose to do, you can contribute financially or otherwise to a cause or to other people/animals, etc. Bill Gates is not a scientist, but he has helped many more poor and sick than many scientist/doctor types have. You can help others either directly (your labor) or indirectly (your money).

Also, do not shun graduate school. The way knowledge is advancing and competition is increasing, it may take us longer to learn what we need to do our job and compete.

 

[stuartr]

Just be aware that if you are a philosophy, history or English major, that does not mean that your only job choices are in those fields. That just isn't the case. My best friend has a masters in philosophy and he works in the State Department, my sister was an art history major and is a successful non-fiction writer, and my father was an English major and went on to be a successful executive in several different companies. As I said before, I majored in Russian and history, and now I do travel photography. If you want a good career, your motivation, intelligence and skills will take you further than what major your diploma lists. I certainly agree that if you know already that you want to be a doctor, engineer or whatever else, you should choose those for a major, but if you are not sure, there is no real reason to choose them right away. If you decide that is what you would like to do, you can almost always do a masters in those fields, regardless of what your undergrad degree was in. It may mean you need to take a few undergraduate classes to fulfill the requirements, but that is usually not a problem.

 

[goober-george]

I talked to my counselor about wanting to work with the homeless and she suggested I major in Social Work, the pay is quite low though. I didn't expect it to be anything high, but average salary after 20 years is at 40,000-50,000 from what I've researched. I've seen some programs online though where people travel to Africa to help the people there, seems like quite the experience.

 

[greggf]

stuartr is again correct.

My wife double majored in college, in the fine arts and in math. Her first job was for the Dept. of Defense; later jobs have been in high-tech firms,and she has done as well as engineers, pay-wise.

I majored in government in college, and my first job was as a linguist for the government; they trained me in the language, at their expense.

Studying what you're interested in - as opposed to studying solely for a career - keeps you from needing a prescription for Prozac when you're 40 or 50.

Do you realize how many attorneys or doctors dream of quitting their jobs to become gentlemen farmers, kite (or amplifier!) builders, and so on?

And the money comes anyway. You just have to sell yourself as what you want to be, and be good at it, as stuartr says of his photography or my writing or painting, neither of which I was formally trained in and neither of which I even have liberal arts degrees in.

For instance, see the personal profile at: St. Lawrence University: Arts

I think the Industrial-Education Complex goes out of its way to instill in young folks the notion that the job market is a linear, well-behaved mechanism, amenable to manipulation by degrees and formal classroom study only, when it fact it's as manipulable as clay, sitting right in front of you.

You just have to have the imagination to shape it into what will please you as opposed to what will please the educators, your parents, and all the other foreign occupiers in your head.

 

[crappyjones123]

this might be taking a different road but i think it is related to the topic. why is it that in the indian subcontinent and a lot of the countries in mainland asia, the liberal arts are usually reserved for the "not so bright" students? students scoring above 80% on their board exams (standardised tests that the entire country takes) are supposed to pick the sciences and math in 11th and 12th grade. anything below and the student is forced into "commerce" even if the student wants to study the sciences. in a system where your board exam scores essentially determine the rest of your education, such a discrimination at the age of 15, i think, is devastating for the students.

most of the universities dont even offer disciplines like mathematics or philosophy as independent majors. mathematics is not considered important enough to be given its own major...it is just a tool at the engineer's disposal. starting with 10th grade, students start preparing for entrance examinations. at least in india, admissions to universities are not based upon how well you did in high school but on a nationwide examination that a lot of students sit for and then only the top scorers get admitted. there is no room for error, the system doesnt allow for the student to explore other options or even be sick on the day of the test since these tests are conducted only once a year. students dont care much for the actual school work as they attend after school classes to prepare for these tests that their lives depend on. such a system is obviously flawed but oddly enough it is working and has worked for the past few years.

in my 10th grade board examinations, i placed 6th in all of india with a score of 92.3% i still remember waking up my entire neighborhood while i ran up and down the streets in my pjs screaming "92.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAAAAAAAH!!! 92.3%" needless to say i was even happier when i cleared the screening test (the test that you take to see if you can even take the actual admission test to the university of your choice) a few months later and was awarded math, computer science, physics, chemistry and english as my 11th grade subjects (considered to be the most prestigious combination. biology was taken ONLY by people who wanted to go to medical school). it was a proud moment for my parents and all my relatives expected me to go to iit (the indian institute of technology, sort of mit's equivalent in india). 2 months into my 11th grade my dad got offered a job in florida and he took it in an instant thinking it would be a great opportunity for my sister and my education. i did well in high school here and got admitted to mit. everyone was happy. a few days later i changed my major to mathematics - a decision crazy enough for my dad to take leave from work for reasons not related to illness, something he had never done in his past 23 years of work. i was asked what made me make such a stupid decision. his first question was, "what are we going to tell your grandfather?" i felt the answer to that question was rather simple but when i talked with my uncle in india a few days later and told him i was majoring in math, he didnt have the foggiest idea in the world what i was talking about. oh and then the decision to double major in philosophy made them go nuts. to them i had gone from being one of the brightest students in india to being one that a family would be ashamed to introduce to their friends.

why does that stigma exist? nothing is being done to remove it simply because the way things are being done right now is working well for them. i hope someone else who has had part of their education outside america can chime in here because it is the only country that i know of, that offers this kind of freedom to explore ANYTHING.