[nmou88]

Hello everyone, I have some questions that need answers that's why I came here, I expain :
I bought recently a new smartphone, the lg g5 with it's hifi plus module powered by ESS Sabre 9028 DAC and Sabre 9602c amp and I wanted to know if it's sufficient to drive a pair of Sennheiser HD 650 headphone and also to know your recommandations
Thanx for answers

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I've read a review before that on IEMs, either through objective measurements or even subjective listening, it doesn't even decisively beat the V10. Measurements on GSMArena I think posted minute improvements, and on the subjective reviews it was more of how the G5 had a tendency to Grado-ize whatever was used with them vs the comparatively laid back and more neutral V10.

 

I'd assume the minute differences in measurements would include total clean power output, so assume the voltage delivery would still be closer to a smartphone, it's just that it's considerably cleaner than badly designed Androids. The thing is, while the B&O module uses discrete chips, it's very likely the battery is the primary limitation. It's less about the voltage but what else it has to power, ie the rest of the smartphone, plus concern for not drastically reducing battery life, even if you can swap batteries.

Can it get to a loud enough listening level without clipping? Sure if the ambient noise is very low and you don't expect a lot. Will the sound be clean, clear, and satisfyingly powerful? Highly doubt it, especially the last one.

 

Check out the Android DACs thread, see what is known to work with the G5. As for what works with the HD650, here's my HP101 (and Note3 on a horizontal dock), which I got when it dropped to $99. Surprisingly good back up amp to my Meier Cantate.2. If anything the Meier can be set to max volume with nothing playing and it has zero noise; the Pangea starts having audible noise at around 12:00 on the dial. Considering it's $99 vs $599, that's not bad considering how the sound is otherwise similar (and you get a high res USB DAC vs the PCM2702 DAC in the Cantate). However if it was still going for its original $250 price tag I'd much rather get the Schiit Magni and Modi.

 

[nmou88]

I don't understand what you want to say sorry

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I don't understand what you want to say sorry

 
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

I've read a review before that on IEMs, either through objective measurements or even subjective listening, it doesn't even decisively beat the V10. Measurements on GSMArena I think posted minute improvements, and on the subjective reviews it was more of how the G5 had a tendency to Grado-ize whatever was used with them vs the comparatively laid back and more neutral V10.

 
1. Whether you go by the measurements taken or by subjective reviews the G5+B&O Friend is not a clear winner over the LG V10
2. Subjective assessment says the G5+B&O Friend had a tendency to make anything it drives take on a slightly Grado-like tone
3. Objective measurements show only very minimimal improvement in distortion, noise, and channel separation on the G5+B&O Friend vs LG V10
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I'd assume the minute differences in measurements would include total clean power output, so assume the voltage delivery would still be closer to a smartphone, it's just that it's considerably cleaner than badly designed Androids. The thing is, while the B&O module uses discrete chips, it's very likely the battery is the primary limitation. It's less about the voltage but what else it has to power, ie the rest of the smartphone, plus concern for not drastically reducing battery life, even if you can swap batteries.'

 

Can it get to a loud enough listening level without clipping? Sure if the ambient noise is very low and you don't expect a lot. Will the sound be clean, clear, and satisfyingly powerful? Highly doubt it, especially the last one.

 
Despite separate DAC and headphone driver chips (vs integrated chips as in nearly all other smartphones and tablets), considerations for such things as battery life limits the output on the B&O Friend. Its output is very clean vs a badly designed smartphone, on par with properly designed phablets like the LG V10 and Note3 (as per GSMArena measurements), but total power output before it clips is not significantly higher than other smartphones.
 
Bottom line: not enough power for HD650 unless you're listening in an isolation chamber where there is totally no background noise to get between you and the low volume, low distortion output.
 
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Check out the Android DACs thread, see what is known to work with the G5. As for what works with the HD650, here's my HP101 (and Note3 on a horizontal dock), which I got when it dropped to $99. Surprisingly good back up amp to my Meier Cantate.2. If anything the Meier can be set to max volume with nothing playing and it has zero noise; the Pangea starts having audible noise at around 12:00 on the dial. Considering it's $99 vs $599, that's not bad considering how the sound is otherwise similar (and you get a high res USB DAC vs the PCM2702 DAC in the Cantate). However if it was still going for its original $250 price tag I'd much rather get the Schiit Magni and Modi.
 

 
Bottom line: get something else to drive it, maybe check what can use the LG G5 as a transport. Like the Note3+Pangea HP101+HD600 below.
 

 

[nmou88]

   
Bottom line: not enough power for HD650 unless you're listening in an isolation chamber where there is totally no background noise to get between you and the low volume, low distortion output.

 
the amplifier of b&o friend has an output maximum resistance of 600

ohms ​

while the headphone has 300 

Ω only so why ?​

 

 Whether you go by the measurements taken or by subjective reviews the G5+B&O Friend is not a clear winner over the LG V10

 
I already bought the phone and i can't return it
 
Also I see some people who test the sennheiser with the phone and are not disappointed : 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/798738/lg-g5-possible-dac-or-camera-modules-audiophiles-enjoy/750#post_12613091

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
the amplifier of b&o friend has an output maximum resistance of 600

ohms ​

while the headphone has 300 

Ω only so why ?​

 

A manufacturer can tell you it can handle "up to," that does not tell you how loud it can get before you get a lot of distortion. So basically either they're gambling that you don't know what such a headphone should really sound like, or you are too safe with your hearing and/or you will be listening inside an acoustically isolated room that is so quiet you can hear you own heartbeat that the low power, low distortion output of the smartphone is enough for you to hear everything in your music out of an open back headphone like that.

 

Look at it another way: the manufacturer can classify a hatchback as a 5passenger car and then say you can load 200kg in the back, but if you actually loaded it with 5 people and 200kg of cargo, while the car can still reach 120kph in the freeway, you have to almost floor the throttle, and then if you need to overtake or otherwise for safety reasons accelerate quickly out of the way of something, even flooring the throttle might not give you a safe enough 45kph to 90kph acceleration.
 

 
I already bought the phone and i can't return it

 

I never said anything about returning it, I just said that comparisons thus far basically said it can't even decisively beat the V10 that it almost sounds like they just deliberately screwed up the design of the regular sound so the B&O module will sound better; and if you're really set on getting the HD650, your best option at this point is to get a DAC-HPamp that can drive it and use your existing G5 as a transport to play music on it. Using my Note 3 as an example of how it's done only tells you that such a thing can be done with some smartphones, not a suggestion to dump what you have. At worst, you need to check whether there are compatibility issues with the G5 on the Android DACs thread.
 
 

 
Also I see some people who test the sennheiser with the phone and are not disappointed : 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/798738/lg-g5-possible-dac-or-camera-modules-audiophiles-enjoy/750#post_12613091

 

But did you PM that user on what other amps he owns? He might not have heard the HD650 on a very clean, very neutral amp. Or perhaps what he meant by "not disappointed" is more along the lines of "if the power's out I can listen with the HD650 driven by the G5 without hating it." I'm not disappointed with my HD600 either when driven by my iPad or Note3, but that's when I basically don't have a choice, like when the power's out.

 

The thing is, for him and me, we already have the HD6x0, and we already have amps. Mine are dependent on wall power though, and a strong storm can knock out the power here - by the time the storm stops that I can listen with an open back headphone the power company is just starting to repair the damage so when that happens I'd have a few hours without power.

 

By contrast you don't have the HD650 yet and you sound like you'd rather not buy an amp either. So why not consider other options first, like a closed back headphone that won't really need an amp in the first place due to a high sensitivity but low impedance. Unless you've already heard the HD650, even if it was driven by a proper amp, at least you are absolutely sure that that's the sound you like, so if you don't like the output from the smartphone then the solution is to just get an amp. If you haven't and you don't like the sound, how can you tell if you just don't like the sound of the HD650, whether or not it can be improved by an amp? Because unless the distortion is absolutely bad like if you tried using an iPod with it, it's not going to change the tonal balance. All that an amp can do is tighten up some of the notes and help with the imaging.

 

[nmou88]

ok so what about the philips fidelio X1 ? Is there a big difference between the x1 and the hd 650 ?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

ok so what about the philips fidelio X1 ? Is there a big difference between the x1 and the hd 650 ?

 

According to reviews, stronger bass. More importantly it should be easier to drive - higher sensitivity and lower impedance. Just note that at 16ohms it could be a problem for some smartphones as that might be too low, but not for your B&O module. So it will not be a problem now but when you replace that phone in a few years make sure to check the performance (especially the output impedance) of your replacement phone, particularly the output impedance.

 

[nmou88]

OK so I think I will go with the fidelio x1 thank
 
edit : I found the fidelio x2 for the same price

 

[SteroidEars]

Thia is kind of late but i have a g5 for almost 2 years. I am not looking to change a phone so i am thinking about getting the B&O hi-fi plus module. Should i get the module or a budget dac? Like Fiio e17k or Fiio Q1/mk 2.
Thanks

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thia is kind of late but i have a g5 for almost 2 years. I am not looking to change a phone so i am thinking about getting the B&O hi-fi plus module. Should i get the module or a budget dac? Like Fiio e17k or Fiio Q1/mk 2.

Those DAC-HPamps have their own battery, not running off the USB 5v/500mA, and can pump out more power, more so for the money that they'll cost. If you're changing your phone anyway then the form factor of the B&O module isn't a plus either.

 

[SteroidEars]

I am not changing my phone. So how does the modile fare against fiio e17k and q1?
I am using an 11ohms iem so it is relatively easy to drive.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I am not changing my phone. So how does the modile fare against fiio e17k and q1?

You have a lot more power off the E17K and Q1. However, the reality here is that for headphones that really need a lot of power these won't be enough either, and for IEMs, these are already overkill, plus the form factor isn't pocketable.

If you'll use an IEM you might as well get the module since 1) you won't have to manage a cable connecting it to the phone nor 2) strapping a DAC-HPamp to the phone. In other words, it's more compact.

I am using an 11ohms iem so it is relatively easy to drive.

The impedance is not an indicator that a transducer is easy to drive.

Impedance that low can actually indicate otherwise for another reason: damping factor and output impedance. Even if the headphone/IEM in question has high sensitivity, ie, the true indicator of how easy it is to drive in terms of how much power is necessary, and can get past hearing damage levels with only the clean 10mW out of a smartphone audio chip, if that circuit has an output impedance higher than 2ohms, you'll get driver distortion from it getting clumsy in doing its job. It's like having a light car with a lot of power, but using the wrong tyres for the weather condition.

Also, most amp circuits will produce peak power at 32ohms, maybe at 16ohms. Power output is lower above and below that. Even the Schiit Lyr will kick out less power at 8ohms vs 32ohms. Same way most speaker amps will likely produce less power given a load lower than 8ohms or 4ohms (and actually cause thermal issues).

If you want to be able to still pump out more than what a smartphone audio chip can kick out - and BTW the B&O module doesn't have anything like a regular DAC-HPamp circuit with a DAC and separate output stage op-amps (much less discrete components) - then get the E17K or the Q1. But again even if the B&O's output drops below 16ohms the sensitivity of the IEM can still be high enough for that too low impedance to not be a problem, plus that compact form factor.

 

[SteroidEars]

Thanks.
I got the amp section amd i am not looking to pump the output up. I kust want an upgrade sonically. So only looking into the dac itself.
Aside from these 2 dac/amp, what do you recommend? If possible, around the price of those 2.
Thanks alot