[jjinh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vagarach /img/forum/go_quote.gif I double majored in actuarial science and statistics for my bachelors degree. Lots of highly complex mathematics and statistics for 4 years. My parents and other people of their generation are much more agile when it comes to doing difficult mental arithmetic, and yeah, I'm dependent on my calculator. The mental agility I have learned is of a completely different nature, I simply don't need to be able to find 2345 + 8756 in 5 seconds flat. This times table thing is from 20 years ago and bemoaning the general state of education is timeless.

hey vagarach, there's another actuary on here!

Yeh, i'd disappointed by the numeracy skills of youngsters nowadays.

 

[gore.rubicon]

reminds me of

+ YouTube Video​

ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

 

[ForgottenxxRebel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hear, hear! This was discussed in-depth recently here in the school education thread. My take on this is the teaching of the times table; it's absolutely useless and does not teach math but memory. Calculators in class rooms is to dictionaries in spelling tests. If you can do 3 x 9 you can also do 3,000,000 x 9,000,000 and $900 - 70% ~ The majority of people just fail to think.

except now many high school math classes are 'calculator training classes'. we're allowed to use calculators on our homework and there's even supplied calculators on test day.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif 11,101 in 2 seconds flat. Ok, maybe 3 seconds. I see it as 2 + 8 = 10 plus 3 digits to the right, or 10,000, then 3 + 7 = 1000 more since it's 10 in the hundreds digit, so 11,000, then 45 +56 = 101. I can't explain why, but when I see numbers like that, I work from left to right (counter to what I was trained to do in grade school). But more than that, I look for and instantly see the easy math groupings, like things that add to 10. The weird thing is that it's just the opposite if I were adding a column of numbers on a sheet of paper. In that case, I would go right back to my grade school training and approach it rather methodically going from right to left (as you're supposed to), "carrying" the extra digits over to the next column. Or, if subtracting, "borrowing" from the next column. So I think that what we're seeing today is only partly do to the advent of the calculator and the resultant changes that have evolved over time in terms of instructional methods. Yes, to a great degree, younger people who weren't taught how to add a column of numbers, or to subtract using the "borrowing" method, or to memorize the times tables, will obviously rely more on calculators. But I think it's more than that. I don't think as many people today (even older people who've grown to rely on calculators) even "think" in mathematical ways or "see" simple mathematical relationships like they did when they were younger, because those old habits have long since fallen out of practice. I have an excuse: I'm an accountant! So I can't really help myself.

Great post! I agree with you in that people are not taught to (more like they really do not care about) think critically and find relationships in things like math problems.

I will be the first to say that I am not all that great at mental math. My take on the OP math problem was as follows:

6x12 -> 6x10 + 6x2 -> 60+12 = 72

That is the only way I can do more complex math. I have to break it down into sight problems. To me, that is much more important that being able to remember a billion math problems in my head. As long as you know how to solve each step of the problem, who cares how you arrive at the answer? Using a calculator is a sign of mathematical evolution. Going through methodical steps to solve the problem (even with a calculator) is a sign of intelligence in my book. Calculators are not Satan - people void of logic and strategy who use calculators thoughtlessly are.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by logwed /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unless your kids are <10, I really don't see the point.

I consider it all part of mental training. As someone mentioned above, a lot of math classes these days just teach kids how to use a calculator rather than teach them to think. It becomes a crutch that actually hampers them because they become dependent. I've had kids who couldn't even do simple addition and subtraction (I'm talking single digits here) when I took their calculator away. They were capable, but without the calculator in their hand they just froze.

 

[fordgtlover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I actually run a math program for kids on the weekends (about 140 kids, staff of 22). The first thing I did when I became principal several years ago: I banned calculators.

FTW - you have my utter respect.

I had a situation a few years ago where I strongly suggested to my 14 year old step-daughter that using calculators for basic maths made you mentally lazy. She agreed, and decided that using her head for simple maths was actually much faster than taking out the calculator and punching some figures.

A few months later we had a parent teacher interview and I made these comments to her maths teacher, and used the example that stuck in my head (and still does) from that discussion with my step daughter - 20% of 120. To my complete surprise, the teacher responded with a comment along the lines of, "That's a difficult calculation to do in your head". Sigh.....

I'm pleased to say that my step daughter, who is now 20, can still do these "difficult" calculations in her head; I just checked.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... decided that using her head for simple maths was actually much faster than taking out the calculator and punching some figures.

QFT

It takes a bit to punch numbers in the cal. It takes less time to use your brain!

 

[wink]

Mathematics:-
It's all just a progression from 1+1=2....
How hard can it be???????????????

 

[nattonrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif 20% of 120. To my complete surprise, the teacher responded with a comment along the lines of, "That's a difficult calculation to do in your head".

Since I teach a lot of the people doing dipEd's with the aim to become a maths teacher I can tell you that most of them never do past the first semester of 2nd year mathematics and most of them struggle (badly) to get through those three semesters.

IMO if someone cannot complete the equivalent of third year uni math then they should not be teaching senior (yr11/12) high-school mathematics...

 

[logwed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForgottenxxRebel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Idiocracy anyone?

I was just talking about that movie during school today...

 

[wlvca]

You'd think a pharmacist would be proficient at arithmetic.

Bigger question - is a pharmacist trained or educated?

Suppose it depends somewhat on the individual pharmacist.

How long should it take to get a tube of prescription ointment handed to you in a pharmacy?

They are trained to take an hour so that you wander around the store buying useless trinkets.

I hate picking up prescriptions......one of my pet peeves.

There are intelligent and capable kids today, more than many may think.

Every generation criticizes the preceeding generation, nature of man.

I am of the Baby Boomer generation and if you don't think Boomers have issues.....

 

[appophylite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif A few months later we had a parent teacher interview and I made these comments to her maths teacher, and used the example that stuck in my head (and still does) from that discussion with my step daughter - 20% of 120. To my complete surprise, the teacher responded with a comment along the lines of, "That's a difficult calculation to do in your head". Sigh.....

That really makes me want to crawl into a corner and cry...

Quote:

Originally Posted by nattonrice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I teach a lot of the people doing dipEd's with the aim to become a maths teacher I can tell you that most of them never do past the first semester of 2nd year mathematics and most of them struggle (badly) to get through those three semesters.

It's starting to get that bad in Engineering as well these days. It's typically expected that if you want to graduate in 4 years or less with an Engineering Degree, you need to start your freshmen year with either basic calculus or a level higher up than that. I'm watching kids come into college, struggle the first year with calculus and then immediately drop behind because they insist on doing engineering but end up having to do a semester or two or pre-calc or lower till they can get into calculus again. Then, the ones that are good with their math levels are completely flabbergasted that college Math departments and Engineering departments don't allow calculators until junior or senior year classes, because they want you to learn how to understand the concepts. My dad is a prof. at a university in Petroleum Engineering, and, I kid you not, he gets the odd e-mail or two every year from High School students looking to get into engineering asking whether Algebra 1 and Geometry will be enough to get them into the program and out in under 4 years...

 

[linuxworks]

my counter-rant in response to this:

I'm nearly 50 and was once a math-major (and comp-sci) in college.

however, things have changed A LOT since then. back then, we had to store info in our brains. now, we store pointers or "ways to get" the info. my brain reorg'd itself so that I flushed out the meaningless data items and replaced it with methods of HOW to get the info.

I think its more efficient, but when I interview for jobs, they clearly don't agree ;(

on interviews (for example) they'll ask me to recreate a linked list insert (code) or something like that. the thing is, I have long since flushed those specifics from my brain. now, if I need a linked list, I go FIND an example (either in my own linux box, as source already there) or I'll find an online example and modify it. THAT is how things (in software) are done today. I've been in the field well over a quarter of a century now and that's how experienced programmers work.

however, I'm at a severe disadvantage when I interview with 'college kids' who have this stuff fresh in their minds. they think they can judge you on how quickly you can RECITE some algorithm you learned in school. for them, it was 'just last year' but for me, it was a few decades ago. its not a fair test and its not at all real-world. thing is, they're all so new, they don't even SEE this.

that's just one perspective on how we have changed how we think. we used to need to store 'tables' in our heads but I argue that we have better ways today and people don't need to be 'walking googles' (lol). we have other ways to recall tabular info, now. use the human brain for original thought and creativity! that is something that 'table data' will never get you.

 

[choka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm nearly 50 and was once a math-major (and comp-sci) in college. however, things have changed A LOT since then. back then, we had to store info in our brains. now, we store pointers or "ways to get" the info. my brain reorg'd itself so that I flushed out the meaningless data items and replaced it with methods of HOW to get the info.

Exactly! My friend used to say, the key is to "learn and forget". Learn how to do it, then flush out the exact details, but keep a big picture of how it is done and how you can quickly find out how to do it again.

 

[SP Wild]

6 X 12 = logic error
3 X 9 = 9 + 9 + 9 = 18 + 9 = 18 + 10 - 1 = 28 -1 = 27 (20 seconds)

I never learned my multiplication tables ever. Though I slipped down the maths ranks in primary school to the very bottom - I rose to the very top in high school - with a calculator.

I have a friend that can compute large multiplications quickly and accurately. I once threw random large numbers at him to multiply and he was always quickly correct. I once needed to know what is the percentage of 7/9 - he said he couldn't do it without a calculator - I said just a rough guess would do - he replied he was unable. I replied "about 80 percent right" - he said he wasn't sure. I said to him "for all the pride and glory you hold to your mathematically capabilities - I have never met anyone dummer than you" - he hung his head in shame.

true story.

There was once this kid in school that was better than the maths teacher - at year 8 he did the most advanced maths a final year 12 student could do. He was the most arrogant person I ever met - He really thought he was "holier than thou". Oddly enough he was hopeless at every other subject. I wouldn't judge too much on a persons memorising capability.